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Post by brobear on Jan 3, 2023 7:38:09 GMT -5
A Himalayan bear is still around the same size of a tigress. So a bear is stronger than a tiger at parity. Average mature Amur tigress (general) - 284.4 pounds. Asiatic black bear - boar: 270 pounds. *Yes; I would say pretty much at weight-parity as averages are never really accurate. I believe that a male moon bear is stronger than a male tiger at weight-parity. This would have to be a really big moon bear or a below average tiger. Moon bears are roughly the same size as a sloth bear. When the tigress retreats from the boar bear, this is to be expected.
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Post by Gorilla king on Jan 3, 2023 8:23:43 GMT -5
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Jiren
Black bear
“Water can flow, or it can crash”.
Posts: 307
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Post by Jiren on Jan 25, 2023 20:24:34 GMT -5
A Himalayan bear is still around the same size of a tigress. So a bear is stronger than a tiger at parity. Yes. The stronger animal usually has larger shoulder/chest muscles (which contribute to overall upper body strength).
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Post by oldindigosilverback on Jan 28, 2023 1:13:53 GMT -5
How do you guys think an Asiatic black bear vs a Sumatran tiger will go?
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Post by Gorilla king on Jan 28, 2023 6:57:13 GMT -5
How do you guys think an Asiatic black bear vs a Sumatran tiger will go? This is basically a weight parity fight (or close to it), all Asiatic black bear subspecies would lose except the Himalayan black bear.
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Post by brobear on Jan 28, 2023 7:11:12 GMT -5
English: Asiatic black bear, Himalayan black bear, Moon bear. www.bearbiology.org/asiatic-black-bear/ Himalayan black bear is not only the name of a specific subspecies, but is also a common name for all moon bears. The moon bear associated with the Amur tiger is the largest of the species, the Ussuri black bear.
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Post by Gorilla king on Jan 28, 2023 7:18:46 GMT -5
There is not 1 account of an Ussuri black bear defeating or even besting an Amur tiger, while there are several accounts of Himalayan black bears defeating or besting Bengal tigers. The Himalayan black bear (Ursus thibetanus laniger) is the most formidable and aggressive black bear subspecies in the word:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/27/himalayan-black-bear?page=1
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Post by oldindigosilverback on Jan 28, 2023 7:32:09 GMT -5
Reply 44. I was think about the video on Thailand tiger project. The Sumatran tiger is also smaller than all extant tigers followed by the tiger is south East Asia (second smallest tiger subspecies). The Himalayan black bear is larger than all other Asiatic black bears to be fair.
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Post by brobear on Jan 28, 2023 13:23:37 GMT -5
Every time you read the word "Himalayan black bear" does not mean that it is Ursus thibetanus laniger. If they're talking about a moon bear and an Amur tiger in the RFE, they're talking about Ursus thibetanus ussuricus. ______________________________________________________ Compare range of Ussuri black bear and Himalayan black bear.
The Himalayan black bear (Ursus thibetanus laniger) is a subspecies of the Asian black bear found in the Himalayas of India, Bhutan, Nepal, China, and Pakistan.
The Ussuri black bear (Ursus thibetanus ussuricus) is a subspecies of the Asiatic black bear named for the Ussuri River in the far east of Russia. Found in central and eastern Asia; specifically Southern Siberia, northeastern China and the Korean peninsula. Mountains of North and South Korea. Divided from the central Chinese population of U. thibetanus for several thousand years by human presence, accompanying land-use and poaching for gall bladders. *oldgreengrolar; the largest moon bear is the Ussuriu moon bear.
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Post by brobear on Jan 28, 2023 13:41:14 GMT -5
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Post by Gorilla king on Jan 28, 2023 13:54:20 GMT -5
Of course we know this, most accounts of Amur tigers killing black bears state "Himalayan black bear", while the reality is that they rarely meet, Himalayan black bears only go North to Russia in the Summer months, otherwise their normal range is the Himalayas. Those black bears killed by Amur tigers are mostly, if not all, the Ussuri black bear (Ursus thibetanus Ussuricus).
See my reply #9:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/4371/thread
Anyhow, Oldgreen just asked who would win between an Asiatic black bear and a Sumatran tiger.
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Post by brobear on Jan 28, 2023 14:41:07 GMT -5
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Post by Gorilla king on Jan 28, 2023 15:58:26 GMT -5
Up to date, there are only 2 known accounts of Asiatic black bears displacing tigers, one happened in Russia, and it says "Himalayan bear", but we know it was most likely the Ussuri black bear because that happened at the end of April (Spring in Russian Far East), and Himalayan black bears only travel North to Russia in Summer, it displaced a tigress:
Reply #66:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/6202/thread
The other one is the famous Jim Corbett account of a big male Himalayan black bear displacing a big male tiger from its kill:
Reply #24:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/3170/thread
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Post by oldindigosilverback on Feb 17, 2023 8:45:42 GMT -5
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Post by Gorilla king on Feb 17, 2023 15:14:01 GMT -5
Reply #53:
Seems like the case, (most likely), But look what the tiger fangay "al_fanar" put as the title "a tiger seizes prey on a black bear in Thailand", of course he chooses the best scenario to make his cat look the best possible, so funny.
This black bear in Thailand is either the Tibetan black bear or the Indochinese black bear.
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Post by brobear on Feb 20, 2023 4:22:23 GMT -5
Other than the sloth bear, most bears which are much smaller than a tiger will intelligently retreat from the tiger. Tigers usually do well against a much smaller bear.
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Post by Montezuma on Mar 23, 2023 2:11:41 GMT -5
"Tigers dominate asiatic black bears" is a phrase often told by tigerfans due to the studies showing that black bears are eaten by them and they fear tigers. Although its true yet to which extent? Do tigers really dominate them and how?
Starting with the quote that tigers regularly eat black bears, is oftenly used but very incorrect. Bears, are an atypical prey for tiger and arn't on tiger's preferred menu are boars, roe deer and sika deer. Consuming someone does mean you dominate it e.g. the lizards consume on crocodile eggs does straightly translate that lizards dominate crocodile. Most evidence on predation is scat analysis which is doubtful due to the scavenging natural instinct. For example, Tkachenko accounts an event where a male tiger killed a black bear whivh was later scavenged by a tigress: where a scat analysis would stimulate a image of two black bears killed respectively, whilst the hunted was only one. And the most note worthy thing is that
"Only a few male tigers can, to a certain extent, specialize in bear hunting (Tkachenko, 2008). For most tigers, the bear is not a frequent prey, and not every encounter can end with an attack"
which means even black bears arn't that easy prey and few tigers actually effect them and all these bears, as a rule, are taken by the ambush strategy and predation become intense in extreme conditions when tiger's natural prey is absent.
"In addition to humans, the black Manchurian bear has only one enemy - the tiger, which, in the absence of other prey, hunts for it, hides it in thickets and rocks and rushes from above, trying to sit on its back and bite its neck".
Although the tiger is capable of killing a black bear of any size (from cub to adult) and has, yet most of the bears are youngs, females or cubs.
"Not all the Himalaya bears killed by tigers, especially young, could be found out because of short-term stay on them меченых tigers. V.S.Khramtsov (1993) informs, that tigers predation on young Himalaya black bears is more often."
"Tigers are known to catch and kill bears for food. Usually these are young female Himalayan bears" (David meanwell 2022)
"A she-bear or a young bear often becomes the prey of the "king of the Manchurian taiga"."
The reason is that adults (especially males) are rarely taken by tigers. Although an adult male tiger can kill an adult male black bear by ambush (and has done) yet there is no evidence of a male tiger killing, even by ambush, a very large black bear weighing +200kg or of its size. The reason for that could be explained since
"Usually the Himalayan black bear is a powerful foe for any tiger and they avoid each other."
Meaning black bears are also avoided by tigers, silghtly balancing the dominating intereaction. When male black bears gain maturity so they become less vulnerable to tigers as they become capable of fighting-off:
"but the old male does not give up easily and sells his life dearly"
"bear seems to be a juvenile at 2-3 years and hence did not have the muscle and fighting abilities it gets by the time it reaches its adult age of 5 years,” said Dr Sonam Wangyel, the chief forestry officer and wildlife biologist."
"Adults, actively defending themselves, are also capable of resisting the tiger (Yudin and Yudina, 2009)."
According to baikov, the himalayan black bear is diligently (not easily) hunted:
From the book "Big Game Hunting in Manchuria" N.A Baikov.
"Большого бураго медвeдя тигръ не трогаетъ, но гималайскаго преслeдуетъ усердно"
"Most often, the victims of the striped were one-year-old individuals. The tiger confidently defeats the Himalayan bear until the age of three."
However, black bears prefer to climb up in trees rather than fighting back which is for non-mature males since they can fight back tigers in face-offs.
"The Himalayan bear is an easier prey for an adult tiger, but if danger is detected in time, it escapes in the trees (Bromley, 1965; Khramtsov, Zhivotchenko, 1981, etc.). Adults, actively defending themselves, are also capable of resisting the tiger (Yudin and Yudina, 2009). "
However, what about the generally stated "black bears fearing tigers and changing routes"? Well, it varies since
"The reaction of Himalayan bears to tiger tracks varies. Usually, adult bears show no visible signs of anxiety"
".DESPITE ACTIVE PERSUIT ON THE PART OF TIGERS, HIMALAYAN BEARS AT KHEKHTSIR WERE USUALLY NOT AFRAID OF FRESH TRACKS, WENT ALONG THEIR PATHS."
whereas sub-adult or females react differently. However, if black bears are so much afraid of tigers, so are their population number or daily activity pattern numbers effected? Is that tree-dwelling nature solely a result of tiger's fear? Well lets see.
Animals, when are dominated show some reactions: like the areas where tigers increase, leopard populations are discouraged and increasing tigers threatens leopard numbers. However, in sikhote-alin, increasing tiger numbers don't reduce black bear populations
"The predation of the tiger during its sedentary life on Khekhtsir (1992–2007) did not lead to a decrease in the number of bears.
"Indeed, the strong competition and antagonism (as it is expressed by Kucherenko) between the 3 predators would exclude the possibility of their simultaneous presence on the same territory. The presence of larger predators will hardly restrict the population of the smaller Asian black bear with very different way of life. This means that the decline of the Asian black bear population is caused by a reason other than simple competition with the larger predators."
instead, surprisingly, black bears number also show a good growth
".The Sikhote-Alin mountain system is the most promising area for conservation of the jointly inhabited wild populations of Himalayan and brown bears on the Asian continent". Pikunov D.G., Seryodkin I.V
If black bears feared too much tigers, why wouldn't their numbers falled like leopards? Why weren't they eleminated as were wolves by tigers? Why wouldn't they change their areas to avoid tigers?
Asiatic black bears, unlike the subordinate leopards, would also scavenge on tiger's kill or even chase smaller ones. Showing that whereas tigers appear very deleterious to leopards, their presence can benefit black bears.
russia-wcs-org.translate.goog/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en
Apart from tiger's predation fear, black bears also tree up to feed and to avoid another larger and formidable predator, the brown bear. It is to be noted that black bears had done area selection to avoid brown bears by occuping higher areas
"Asiatic black bears avoided brown bears by occupying higher elevations and being more diurnal where they coexisted."
Whilst, interestingly, it hasn't adopted an areas to avoid tigers since siberian tigers also occupy higher elevations. If black bears were so afraid of tigers, then why would they share a similar elevation with the tiger? Why would they moved to a separate elevation to avoid? Black bears become more diurnal to avoid brown bears but not tigers. Why don't they adjust specific patterns to avoid tigers as they did for brown bears?
"Asiatic black bears and brown bears are competitors in this area, but they can coexist by changing their daily activity patterns"
So, as the proof shows brown bears seems to effect black bear's life patterns (daily activity + residencal area) more than tigers meaning tiger arn't way dominant over them. Tigers avoid black bears avoid each other, however tigers are recultant against mature male asiatic black bears ehile would in lack of prey, attack subadults and females. Adult males, or perhaps adult females, show no fear of tiger tracks while juveniles do. Overall, tigers arn't really dominant over asiatic black bears.
Any thoughts? Link to quoted sources:-
russia-wcs-org.translate.goog/en-us/About-Us/Publications/Tiger-Monograph.aspx?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en
www-hab-kp-ru.translate.goog/daily/27477/4684605/?fromrss=582&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp
books.google.com.ar/books?id=Kwy2AAAAIAAJ&q=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&dq=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV-sjP16j6AhXHqpUCHczwAVYQ6AF6BAgCEAM
elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya_biblioteka/434314/Gimalayskie_medvedi_Bolshogo_Khekhtsira
www.researchgate.net/publication/302590565_MARK_TREES_AND_INDIRECT_COMMUNICATION_BETWEEN_BEARS_URSUS_ARCTOS_URSUS_THIBETANUS_AND_TIGER_PANTHERA_TIGRIS_ON_THE_SIKHOTE-ALIN
www.ohotniki.ru/amp/editions/huntingfishing/article/2008/04/28/42940-medvedi-dalnego-vostoka.html
kuenselonline.com/news/?file=article&sid=13949
esj-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1007/s11284-010-0723-1
www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/12/10/1262
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/US/2020/05/08/Introducing-wolves-leads-to-fewer-wildland-coyotes-researchers-find/8291588874374/&ved=2ahUKEwjonN6kzu_9AhWqVqQEHR8eBx4QFnoECCoQAQ&authuser=2&usg=AOvVaw12tKukYnpQbMWBLYuwRHXx
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Post by Gorilla king on Mar 23, 2023 5:03:08 GMT -5
Reply #56:
Very nice compilation bro. Yeah, tigers for the most part avoid adult male Asiatic black bears. The difference though in regards to brown bears is that #1, there are confirmed accounts of tigers killing adult male Asiatic black bears, #2, Asiatic black bears dont displace tigers (except in 1 very rare case), and #3, Asiatic black bears basically pose no threat to tigers, unlike brown bears. All in all, i would say that tigers dont dominate adult male Asiatic black bears.
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Post by Montezuma on Mar 23, 2023 11:53:55 GMT -5
Yeah bro. So true. Adult male asiatic black bear can be preyed by tigers either ambush since tigers are larger than them. However, we don't have account of tigers killing a black bear larger than itself or killing or fighting a 200kg black bear. Few male tigers actually hunt them, which are mostly sub-adults and females, and very rately adult males. A male tiger can and have kill an adult male black bear, but rarely. Both of these two speciems don't effect each other (daily activity+area occupation). Only the brown bear effect the black bear (as evident of this guy occuping higher elevation and becoming more diurnal) and to tigers (by kleptoparasitism and making them avoid).
Yes, black bears prefer to scavenge on kills. Its silly to go and fight a larger opponent for a kill. Usurpation of kills from tigers ,from sub-adult to adult male,is the buisness of male brown bears.
In nature, size matters, and in this case nature has given the tiger this advantage allowing tigers to kill black bears from a cub to an adult male, however, fully-grown males are rarely preyed and a black bear of equal or more weight isn't bothered (as no case exists). Soon, i would make points of this intereaction too as i did to others.
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Post by Montezuma on Mar 24, 2023 0:20:14 GMT -5
1#. Black bears are rarely preyed by few male tigers to an certain extent (Tkachenko, Sergey Kolchin,Svetlana Soutyrina) 2#. Adult males very rarely, but young female and sub-adult black bears most commonly fall prey on tigers. (David meanwell, Baikov, V.S. Kramtvos)
3#. Adult males, or perhaps adult female, black bears would fight with a tiger on defend itself and arn't easily killed (Yudin, Yudina, Baikov, Sonam Wanglay)
4#. Tiger predation don't effect black bear numbers and population. (Kuchrenko, Tkachenko, Khekhtsir observations)
5#. Black bears (not adult males) would mostly tree up to escape tiger attacks. (Bromley, Khramtsov, Zhivotchenko)
6# Black bears are formidable foes for tigers and both usually avoid each other. (Sonam Wanglay)
7#. Sub-adult black bears fear tiger tracks, however adults, males or perhaps females, show no fear to tiger tracks even fresh and move easily along with them. (Khekhtsir obervations, Tkachenko)
8#. In a fight to death match, a large black bear can defeat a large tiger. (Jim cobbert, Mountfort)
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