Ussuri brown bear and Siberian tiger interactions

[kille]

Tiger opponents

But hunting for large game does not always end successfully for the tiger. In domestic hunting literature, there are cases described when a tiger died from the fangs of a large boar and even from the teeth of a large pig defending its brood. N. Kovalchuk and S. Kucherenko claim that they know of cases of a tiger dying in a clash with a large male red deer. G. F. Gorokhov calculated that out of eleven fights between adult tigers and brown bears, in three cases the tiger killed the bear, in two the bear killed the tiger, and in six the animals separated. Zoologist V. Kostoglod tells of nine tigers, four cubs and five adults, who died in clashes with bears. The same author describes cases when large male brown bears immediately after leaving their dens followed the tiger's tracks and drove the striped predators away from their prey.
books.google.com/books/about/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8.html?hl=ar&id=J7WUDwAAQBAJ#v=onepage&q=%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%20%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%20%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%20%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%8F&f=false

[Gorilla king]

G. F. Bromley (1965) mentions 15 cases of tiger attacks on brown bears in their dens but does not specify the outcome of these attacks; it is only noted that these attacks were not always successful.

Experience of Long-Term Tracking of a Non-Hibernating Brown Bear in Sikhote-Alin.
Kostoglod V.E. (1981) [Bulletin of the Moscow Society of Naturalists. Biological Section. Vol. 86, Issue 1] pp. 3–12.


So male tigers attack hibernating brown bears which are completely in a disadvantage and sometimes they are not successful. This most likely means they have to run away from an awakening bear. Very telling.

[Gorilla king]

SKULL OF A TIGRESS EATEN BY A BROWN BEAR.

[Gorilla king]

Experience of Long-Term Tracking of a Non-Hibernating Brown Bear in Sikhote-Alin.
Kostoglod V.E. (1981) [Bulletin of the Moscow Society of Naturalists. Biological Section. Vol. 86, Issue 1] pp. 3–12.

The literature generally holds that the tiger is an enemy of bears, and only rarely becomes their victim (Baikov, 1925; Bromley, 1965; Heptner and Sludsky, 1972).

Yes of course, 100% true. With the tiger picking and choosing the smaller/weakest/sickest individuals, and running away when its not going their way, makes perfect sense. Am surprised there even is 20+ Amur tigers killed by brown bears.

This perspective is applicable to the Asiatic black bear. However, regarding the brown bear, our observations, along with the data from G. Gorokhov (1973), suggest otherwise. The brown bear is not only capable of resisting a tiger but often pursues the tiger and attacks first during encounters:

[oldcyansilverback]

[Gorilla king]

FROM MIKHAIL KRECHMAR:


"The main enemy of the brown bear (other than humans) is the brown bear itself."


www-litres-ru.translate.goog/book/mihail-krechmar/mohnatyy-bog-4989181/chitat-onlayn/?page=2&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true

[Gorilla king]

Krechmar says brown bears kill much more tigers than the other way around and tigers run away when brown bears steal their prey:




Besides humans, there are two other species of mammals that can try to put the "master of the taiga" in its place. In the Far East, it is the tiger, and in the rest of the habitat, in hungry years, it is the wolves. The famous naturalist and researcher of Primorye, L. Kaplanov, mentions cases of a successful tiger attack on a brown bear.


However, reading the literature more carefully, you gradually come to the conclusion that the opposite happens much more often. In particular, V. Baikov cites two cases of bears killing Ussuri tigers. Another modern researcher says that when bears of the Sikhote-Alin Range leave their dens, they begin to track tigers! Not to feast on cat meat. Their task is much simpler. In principle, a tiger as a predator is much "more capable" than a bear. An average tiger kills two or three young pigs or one or two red deer in a week. And then the brown bear comes on the scene.

He acts as an extortionist. It is enough for him to find the remains of the striped predator's prey to ensure his own food. And if the prey's rightful owner is still near it, the latter prefers to leave without getting involved with the clubfoot giant.




www-litres-ru.translate.goog/book/mihail-krechmar/mohnatyy-bog-4989181/chitat-onlayn/?page=2&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es-419&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true

[kille]

Brown bears are predators of tigers and cubs. 

www.academia.edu/12535340/Survival_rates_and_causes_of_mortality_of_Amur_tigers_on_and_near_the_Sikhote_Alin_Biosphere_Zapovednik

[Montezuma]

Despite its apparent clumsiness, the bear is flexible and agile, like a cat.

Apart from Krechmar, many other Russian and American biologists and hunters tell us how deceptive is the clumsy look of the bear despite of its incredible agility and quickness relative to its bulk, size and body build. Its enough to precisely hit and bite a cat without being dodged. It's clear cats don't posses a great advantage of agility over bear which is one of their few and key feature of fighting. 

The main enemy of the brown bear (other than humans) is the brown bear itself.

Indeed, not in vain Wayne Lynch stated that the only other creature that can displace a brown bear from its kill is only another brown bear. Given the size, strength, valour and tenacity of male brown bears, they simply rule everywhere they dwell from Alaska to Kamchatka and Baikal to Tibet. Only a Polar bear can dominate it in the wild or maybe the Himalayan black bear does to Himalayan Brown bear.

Besides humans, there are two other species of mammals that can try to put the "master of the taiga" in its place. In the Far East, it is the tiger, and in the rest of the habitat, in hungry years, it is the wolves. The famous naturalist and researcher of Primorye, L. Kaplanov, mentions cases of a successful tiger attack on a brown bear.

We know who is the real master of the taiga.

However, reading the literature more carefully, you gradually come to the conclusion that the opposite happens much more often. In particular, V. Baikov cites two cases of bears killing Ussuri tigers. Another modern researcher says that when bears of the Sikhote-Alin Range leave their dens, they begin to track tigers! Not to feast on cat meat. Their task is much simpler. In principle, a tiger as a predator is much "more capable" than a bear. An average tiger kills two or three young pigs or one or two red deer in a week. And then the brown bear comes on the scene.

He acts as an extortionist. It is enough for him to find the remains of the striped predator's prey to ensure his own food. And if the prey's rightful owner is still near it, the latter prefers to leave without getting involved with the clubfoot giant.

If a tiger even an adult male concedes its prey to a brown bear so it is no surprise as it's a typical feline behaviour. We have authentic studies clearly showing that since prehistoric times, dominant male bears confidently visit and seize kills by felines from large Saber tooth tigers to small lynxes. For instance let's recall the cougar-bear, leopard-bear, lynx-bear, cave lion-bear, Saber tooth cat-bear interactions etc. It also has been even supposed that Grizzly bear might have posed threats to jaguar on kill disputes. In all these kill disputes where bears come off as dominant, one thing is typically common is that the bear has a clear size advantage. And a 600 pound Ussuri brown bear possesses a weight advantage of 200 pounds over a 400 pound Amur tiger, so would it be reasonable to assume that the bear wouldn't be able to drive away the tiger? Krechmar's words crystal clearly indicate that brown bears dominate tigers. 

[Montezuma]

Some more interesting quotes of brown bears from Krechmar's book:

The physical strength of the brown bear has long caused amazement among hunters and genuine naturalists, and indeed any person who has encountered it. It seemed that people were unable to calmly relate to a living creature endowed with such phenomenal abilities.

A. Cherkasov also wrote about the bear: “The strength of its jaws is amazing: with its teeth it crushes huge bones, bites through thick birch bastrygs, and with its paws it hits so hard that with one blow it kills a man and drops a horse to the ground. Its strength is remarkable: standing on its hind legs, it easily holds large bulls and horses in its front paws and even drags them from one place to another.”

The bears' aggression towards each other and their extreme "individualism" may be explained by their dietary habits. "Two bears cannot live in the same den," says a Russian proverb. Due to its size and lifestyle, the bear is an extremely energy-intensive animal, so it needs to eat constantly and in large quantities. Food supplies in our harsh conditions are far from unlimited.

Here is the answer to the question of why big bears don't like each other so much.

It's somewhat akin to the old joke from the times of stagnation: we can't have a second party because we can't feed two.

[Gorilla king]

Oct 24, 2024 0:20:27 GMT -5 kille said:

Brown bears are predators of tigers and cubs. 

www.academia.edu/12535340/Survival_rates_and_causes_of_mortality_of_Amur_tigers_on_and_near_the_Sikhote_Alin_Biosphere_Zapovednik

An Asiatic black bear might "potentially" prey on a tiger cub, but that's basically it. Having said that, there is not even 1 record of a black bear killing a tiger cub, not even tiger remains in its scat that i know of.

[oldcyansilverback]

Animal Face off: How accurate do you guys think this is?

[Gorilla king]

Oct 25, 2024 7:36:32 GMT -5 oldcyansilverback said:

Animal Face off: How accurate do you guys think this is?

Very accurate, scientists were hired to make those simulations. Its not very likely a male tiger would defend its kill from a male brown bear, but the program's sake, they made them fight.

the tiger stuck with all its weight, but the bear didn't lose its balance

 there you can see the plantigrade stance working.

The tiger's claws cut deep, but failed to disable the bear

 that's the thick fur/fat there.

While the tiger was fast and agile, he couldn't deliver the killer bite to the brown bear's neck

 Of course, a tiger cant do that while in a face to face fight.

The bear's superior power was the deciding factor"

Of course.


The bear broke the tiger's back. End of story. Seems pretty accurate to me.

[Montezuma]

I always agreed with this show. Tigerfans always get fucked up when seeing this.

[Jiren]

Oct 24, 2024 0:20:27 GMT -5 kille said:

Brown bears are predators of tigers and cubs. 

www.academia.edu/12535340/Survival_rates_and_causes_of_mortality_of_Amur_tigers_on_and_near_the_Sikhote_Alin_Biosphere_Zapovednik

Good source

[Montezuma]

Post by kille on Domain of the bears.

domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/67192/thread

"численность на сегодняшний день может быть определена очень приблизительно в 4-5 тыс. особей.

Какова была численность гималайского медведя в начале текущего столетия, можно судить лишь по косвенным данным (Маак, 1861; Пржевальский, 1870) и области распространения. Из обычного он становится редким и малочисленным. В середине 1970-х годов, когда насчитывалось около 8,0 тыс. особей, введением лимитированного отстрела был получен положительный эффект. Резкий перелом к худшему произошел в 1991 г. из-за резкого роста масштабов браконьерской охоты, в том числе на редких и внесенных в Красные книги видов. В настоящий период антропогенный пресс на ставшего более доступным в трансформированных лесах гималайского медведя главный фактор, дестабилизирующий популяции вида. Выдвигаемые С.П. Кучеренко (1985; 1993) доводы о роли хищничества тигра в отношении гималайского и бурого медведей вызывают недоверие и опровергаются исследованиями В.Е.Костоглода (1977). В самом деле, наличие антагонизма, нетерпимости и конкуренции (по Кучеренко) между названными хищниками исключает возможность их совместного обитания. Следо- вательно, присутствие более крупных хищников не является ведущим фактором ограничения численности гималайского медведя. Давление хищников может оказать влияние на стадии критического состояния популяции потенциальной".

"The number to date can be estimated very roughly at 4,000-5,000 individuals.

What was the number of the Himalayan bear at the beginning of the current century, we can judge only from indirect data (Maak, 1861; Przhevalsky, 1870) and the area of distribution. From being common, it is becoming rare and scarce. In the mid-1970s, when there were about 8,000 individuals, the introduction of limited shooting had a positive effect. A sharp turn for the worse occurred in 1991 due to a sharp increase in poaching, including poaching of rare and Red Book species. At present, anthropogenic pressure on the Himalayan bear, which has become more accessible in transformed forests, is the main factor destabilizing the species' populations. The arguments put forward by S.P. Kucherenko (1985; 1993) about the role of tiger predation on Himalayan and brown bears are disbelieved and refuted by the studies of V.E. Kostoglod (1977). Indeed, the presence of antagonism, intolerance and competition (according to Kucherenko) between these predators excludes the possibility of their cohabitation. Consequently, the presence of larger predators is not the leading factor in limiting Himalayan bear abundance. Predator pressure can influence the critical population stages of a potential Himalayan bear population".

Though it's different yet it sounds quite similar to this one:

"Indeed, the strong competition and antagonism (as it is expressed by Kucherenko) between the 3 predators would exclude the possibility of their simultaneous presence on the same territory. The presence of larger predators will hardly restrict the population of the smaller Asian black bear with very different way of life. This means that the decline of the Asian black bear population is caused by a reason other than simple competition with the larger predators."

books.google.com.ar/books?id=Kwy2AAAAIAAJ&q=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&dq=Kostoglod%20bear/tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV-sjP16j6AhXHqpUCHczwAVYQ6AF6BAgCEAM

We all are already aware that tigers don't limit Himalayan black bear population in Amur and neither Bengal tiger shape bear activity or numbers in India.

This thing that tigers play a role in bear numbers as proposed by Kucherenko is refuted by other biologists for not being based on evidence and facts(as shown in the first part). This is simply another proof that 'amur tigers don't dominate black bears'. Effecting population of a submissive species by another predator is found in many dominant-submissive relations in ecology which 'actively' react to one another. Let for example see how tigers effect leopard populations, or wolves effect cougar and coyote populations. Amur tigers don't shape the noctural-diurnal black bear activity or its occupation of higher or lower elevation (instead we see only the Ussuri brown bear have an impact on black bear activity; when the bruin is diurnal the other becomes nocturnal and the former is on lower elevations so the latter goes to higher ones to avoid).

Another important thing to note is that 'poaching' or 'legal hunting' is the only major cause of decline in bear populations. We indeed have multiple sources (previously posted) that when bear hunting increased so does their number decline and when poaching decrease the numbers increase not decently but very highly. Remember when tigers increase does does the bears too. Bear-human never bear-tiger interaction determines bear numbers and activity. Tigers very rarely prey on bears while bears more actively scavenge or usurp tiger kills (Salkina Galina Petrovna) and that's why bears generally profit from tiger presence (Miquellle). For male brown bears tigers simply provide the food which these giants gain from wolves. 

[Gorilla king]

The arguments put forward by S.P. Kucherenko (1985; 1993) about the role of tiger predation on Himalayan and brown bears are disbelieved and refuted by the studies of V.E. Kostoglod (1977).

Poor Kucherenko, first, he was refuted by Sysoev about tigers being stronger than bears, and now this ,refuted by Kostoglod about the role of tiger predation on bears. Poor Kuche, always getting refuted, most likely always on too much vodka, LMAO.

[Jiren]

Oct 27, 2024 9:18:56 GMT -5 Gorilla king said:

The arguments put forward by S.P. Kucherenko (1985; 1993) about the role of tiger predation on Himalayan and brown bears are disbelieved and refuted by the studies of V.E. Kostoglod (1977).

Poor Kucherenko, first, he was refuted by Sysoev about tigers being stronger than bears, and now this ,refuted by Kostoglod about the role of tiger predation on bears. Poor Kuche, always getting refuted, most likely always on too much vodka, LMAO.

I think I saw a source similar to this about bengal tigers and sloth bears

[Montezuma]

Credits to kille:

рован оленных 3 редний почти на два года превышает таковой у тигров, погибших в конфликт- ных ситуациях.

Павших тигров из числа обследованных нами было восемь пять самцов и три самки. Обстоятельства их гибели различны: три тигра погибли от ран, полученных в схватках с медведем, тигром и кабаном, два пали от болезней и по одному от отравления и истощения. 

translation 

The average survival rate of deer is almost two years higher than that of tigers that died in conflict situations.

Of the tigers we examined, eight died: five males and three females. The circumstances of their deaths varied: three tigers died from wounds received in fights with a bear, a tiger and a wild boar, two died from diseases and one each from poisoning and exhaustion.



books.google.com.pk/books/about/%D0%91%D1%8E%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C_%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3.html?hl=ar&id=Y_faAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y#%D0%A1%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%B8%20%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0%20%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%20%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BC

Anything new?

[kille]

books.google.com/books?id=LiogD9hm_KwC&q=%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80+%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F+%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%85+%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9&dq=%D0%A2%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80+%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F+%D0%BD%D0%B0+%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D1%8B%D1%85+%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9&hl=ar&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi569yytLiJAxUnUqQEHYbHESA4MhDoAXoECAIQAw
Rakoff link