Ussuri brown bear and Siberian tiger interactions

[brobear]

Sept 8, 2024 17:00:58 GMT -5 Gorilla king said:

Sept 7, 2024 22:28:23 GMT -5 brobear said:

Quote; "Unlike the authorities that say that the tiger wins most times who never saw a fight, they just go by the signs of the "battle-ground".

Fact: the tiger does win the "fight" most often (fight being an ambush) because he ambushes moon bears, adolescent brown bears, and adult she-bears.

That's correct. The funny thing is, and i will reiterate for the million time, despite the fact that the bears are being ambushed, incredibly enough, they are strong enough to dislodge and still make a "fight" happen and even win sometimes even while being initially injured/weakened by the ambush. The severity of the initial injuries caused by the ambush of course, depends on each ambush, some are less and some are more serious.

Exactly, and these ambush victims being she-bears weighing less than the adult male tiger.

[kille]

Tigers hate and avoid bears.
books.google.com/books/about/Tiger_Season.html?hl=ar&id=53_yEAAAQBAJ#v=onepage&q=Tigers%20avoid%20bears&f=false

[Gorilla king]

Fanfag quote:

"So imagine, throughout many millennia, there must have been hundreds, if not, thousands of adult male brown bears hunted, killed and eaten by tigers in the extremely vast and remote Amur-Ussuri taiga forests."

Yet, in a 21 year long peer reviewed study, by following radio-collared tigers, which is the only and most important study on bear-tiger interactions, not one adult male brown bear was found killed by a tiger. Nice, the imagination of this kid runs wild, lmfao. I think he should be pissed off at tigers instead of praising them so much, because they decided to stop murdering adult male brown bears just for that 21 year study. Damn.

[yz]

Hi, the people who have interacted with me know for a fact I'd fully support a Brown Bear over a Tiger but I'd still like a refutation to all the accounts and expert opinions Tiger fans have. I know that you might have addressed them all here already but I'm kinda lazy to read through 1230+ posts lol.

[Gorilla king]

Sept 14, 2024 19:09:22 GMT -5 yz said:

Hi, the people who have interacted with me know for a fact I'd fully support a Brown Bear over a Tiger but I'd still like a refutation to all the accounts and expert opinions Tiger fans have. I know that you might have addressed them all here already but I'm kinda lazy to read through 1230+ posts lol.

Yeah, absolutely everything has been addressed in this thread, the accounts favoring tigers are basically 100% ambush hunts over female brown bears, subadult brown males (very few), and black bears of all ages. There is not one confirmed account of a tiger killing an adult male brown bear from a peer reviewed study, but there are 2 adult male tigers killed by brown bears from a peer reviewed study. Tigers completely avoid adult male brown bears, tons of authorities have stated that. The experts opinions favoring tigers are basically saying tigers win most "fights" with brown bears, but that is just a figure of speech, what they really mean is that tigers successfully ambush hunt brown bears most times, that is how they "win most fights". Most Biologists dont talk about fights, they talk about interactions, one time i emaik Dale Miquelle and he told me he is a scientist and it would look bad if he told me who would win a "fight", because he only talks about interactions and only cares for preservation of the animals. That they are favoring a tiger in a straight head on battle is absolute horseshit, i guarantee you that. By the way, there are also biologists that favor the brown bear, and those really mean head on as bears cant ambush a cat with all its senses.

[Gorilla king]

yz


So what do you think about my reply #1024 bro? Convincing to you or not? Also, you very much love morphological studies, same as me, so if ML is interpreting those expert quotes correctly, and those biologists are really favoring tigers in a fair face to face fight, than that would mean all those morphological studies which mostly favor bears, and in which you and me based are opinions on, than that would mean all those studies mean nothing and me, you, and whoever bases their opinion on those studies, we would all be wrong. So, those studies favor the brown bear, grappling ability, more robust limbs, as well as most advantages, better developed deltoid crest, plantigrade, wider and more robust scapula, more powerful biceps muscles, larger collarbones, not to mention weight and stamina, durability, etc, etc, etc, as all these favor the brown bear, than that would mean that MY THEORIES would be correct, the ones at my reply #1024, this means the theories of ML would mostly be wrong. What do you think?

[kille]

Little bears become victims of tigers
source
ГЛАВА 19

ВЗАИМООТНОШЕНИЯ АМУРСКОГО ТИГРА С БУРЫМ И ГИМАЛАЙСКИМ МЕДВЕДЯМИ

И.В. Серёдкин, Дж.М. Гудрич, А.В. Костыря, Б.О. Шлейер, Е.Н. Смирнов, Л.Л. Керли, Д.Дж. Микелл

A brown bear attacked a tiger and took a wild boar.
Bears often follow tiger tracks in search of the remains of tiger prey (Kaplanov, 1948; Rakov, 1970; Kostoglod, 1976; Khramtsov, Zhivchenko, 1981; Donichenko, 1991; our unpublished data). V. E. Kostoglod tracked

: Himalayan bear. Smaller prey than brown bear or wapiti. Not all Himalayan bears killed by tigers, especially young ones, can be detected due to the short stay of tagged tigers. vs. Khramtsov (1993) reported

[yz]

Sept 15, 2024 19:46:12 GMT -5 Gorilla king said:

yz


So what do you think about my reply #1024 bro? Convincing to you or not? Also, you very much love morphological studies, same as me, so if ML is interpreting those expert quotes correctly, and those biologists are really favoring tigers in a fair face to face fight, than that would mean all those morphological studies which mostly favor bears, and in which you and me based are opinions on, than that would mean all those studies mean nothing and me, you, and whoever bases their opinion on those studies, we would all be wrong. So, those studies favor the brown bear, grappling ability, more robust limbs, as well as most advantages, better developed deltoid crest, plantigrade, wider and more robust scapula, more powerful biceps muscles, larger collarbones, not to mention weight and stamina, durability, etc, etc, etc, as all these favor the brown bear, than that would mean that MY THEORIES would be correct, the ones at my reply #1024, this means the theories of ML would mostly be wrong. What do you think?

Agreed. But it still wouldn't hurt to debunk some of their accounts. Here are some :

[Gorilla king]

I have encountered large bears that were killed and eaten by a tiger

This above is from Kucherenko.

First of all, it doesn't say "adult male" brown bears. Second of all, we have seen 300 lb bears be described as "large" or "huge", adult female brown bears can easily be described as "large". In reality, "large" tells us nothing when it comes to bears. And again, there is no adult male brown bear killed by a tiger from a peer reviewed study.

The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear

What does "average" bear even mean? Adult males? Black bears? Anyhow, naturalist and hunter Vsevolod Sysoev:


"THE LARGE USSURI VARIETY DOES NOT FLINCH EVEN BEFORE A TIGER. IT IS STRONGER AND MORE ENDURING THAN THE LATTER”




books.google.com.ar/books?id=fl0mAQAAMAAJ&q=Shatun+bears+hunt+tigers&dq=Shatun+bears+hunt+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y




We already went over this a short time ago:

Reply #944:

beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/12175/thread

My answer was, reply #947:

beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/12179/thread



#1-and most important, once again, not part of a peer reviewed study, hence unconfirmed.

#2-Shatun bear, starving, freezing, sick/weak bear. I wouldn't be surprised if a shatun is killed by a male tiger.

#3-as there is no description of how the interaction or fight started, then we automatically assume it was done by ambush, hence not a face to face fight.




#1-And most important, not part of a peer reviwed study, hence not confirmed.

#2-this above is from Mazak, the secondary source. The primary source, which is Jankowski, never mentions that the tiger had killed the bear, it just mentioned that a large tiger (around 300 kg) had eaten a very large male brown bear, that's it. So as you can see, this contradiction makes it even more unconfirmed.

You can read all this here from Wildfact, check out:

Reply #1:

wildfact.com/forum/topic-question-for-peter?pid=7613#pid7613

Reply #2:

wildfact.com/forum/topic-question-for-peter?pid=7723#pid7723

[yz]

Sept 16, 2024 14:02:12 GMT -5 Gorilla king said:

I have encountered large bears that were killed and eaten by a tiger

This above is from Kucherenko.

First of all, it doesn't say "adult male" brown bears. Second of all, we have seen 300 lb bears be described as "large" or "huge", adult female brown bears can easily be described as "large". In reality, "large" tells us nothing when it comes to bears. And again, there is no adult male brown bear killed by a tiger from a peer reviewed study.

The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear

What does "average" bear even mean? Adult males? Black bears? Anyhow, naturalist and hunter Vsevolod Sysoev:

"THE LARGE USSURI VARIETY DOES NOT FLINCH EVEN BEFORE A TIGER. IT IS STRONGER AND MORE ENDURING THAN THE LATTER”




books.google.com.ar/books?id=fl0mAQAAMAAJ&q=Shatun+bears+hunt+tigers&dq=Shatun+bears+hunt+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y




We already went over this a short time ago:

Reply #944:

beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/12175/thread

My answer was, reply #947:

beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/12179/thread



#1-and most important, once again, not part of a peer reviewed study, hence unconfirmed.

#2-Shatun bear, starving, freezing, sick/weak bear. I wouldn't be surprised if a shatun is killed by a male tiger.

#3-as there is no description of how the interaction or fight started, then we automatically assume it was done by ambush, hence not a face to face fight.




#1-And most important, not part of a peer reviwed study, hence not confirmed.

#2-this above is from Mazak, the secondary source. The primary source, which is Jankowski, never mentions that the tiger had killed the bear, it just mentioned that a large tiger (around 300 kg) had eaten a very large male brown bear, that's it. So as you can see, this contradiction makes it even more unconfirmed.

You can read all this here from Wildfact, check out:

Reply #1:

wildfact.com/forum/topic-question-for-peter?pid=7613#pid7613

Reply #2:

wildfact.com/forum/topic-question-for-peter?pid=7723#pid7723

Ok thanks very much. Can you show me an example in which a bear was stated to be large but turned out not to be so large ?

[Gorilla king]

Ok thanks very much. Can you show me an example in which a bear was stated to be large but turned out not to be so large ?

Reply #20:

beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/439/thread

[Gorilla king]

By the way, i can basically say some shit or "debunk" basically every single account/chart/expert opinion, favoring tigers, or lions. Exact same way tiger fans can say some shit or "debunk" basically every account or expert opinion favoring bears, same way tiger fans can say some shit or "debunk" basically every account favoring lions over tigers, same way lion fans can say some shit or "debunk" basically every account favoring tigers over lions or bears over lions. Nobody likes the accounts against their favorite animal, that's why we try to say some shit or "debunk" them. But we all love the accounts favoring our favorite animal, that's why we defend those accounts. And all this above is what makes debating a joke and a waste of time really, you will absolutely never change another mind, no matter what its said or posted. 

[brobear]

Debunked - Not by cherry-picked opinions; but by Truth/Facts:

The W.J. Jankowski Story - 1943.
The 1951 Tatibe River tigress - 1951.
About M20/T-20/Dale/Dima/Misha killing a large bear - 1997.
Ochkarik and Chlamida - 2017.
Odyr and Misha - 2022.

[Montezuma]

Arguably the most reliable animal fight channel:

[fantasticstruggle788]

V.P. Sysoev (1958). The Taiga. Page 75. Chapter "tiger hunting"

[Jiren]

“Average tiger stronger than average bear”

Isn’t this from Kucherenko? Kucherenko noted that big brown bears can defeat adult male tigers.

He also reported how a large brown bear wasn’t afraid of three tigers (adult female and two almost full grown (4 year olds).

Kucherenko also state that
"...Но не всегда и не каждому медведю достаются кабаны или другие звери, а поэтому бедствующие медведи к холодам худеют (poor body condition), озлобляются и становятся дерзкими. Многие из них в берлоги так и не ложатся, становятся шатунами и рано или поздно погибают от голода, холода, пуль охотника или в схватке с тигром.

Шатуны очень опасны! Они не только на диких зверей охотятся, но и усиленно давят домашних животных. Случается, и люди становятся их жертвами. Однажды шатун напал... на мчавшийся по дороге грузовик - это ли не свидетельство безвыходности его положения! И что ему в это время тигр! Обнаружив его следы, он устремляется по ним, серьезно надеясь поживиться остатками трапез более ловкого охотника, а при случае и отобрать его добычу...."

"...Внимательные наблюдения свидетельствуют все же о том, что во взаимоотношениях амурского тигра с бодрствующим бурым медведем более агрессивен последний, причем преследует он тигра и ввязывается в драку в голодное, как правило, время, обычно осенью при недостатках орехов и желудей. Наиболее свойственно это шатунам. Добровольно тигр нападает в основном на некрупных медведей, будучи заведомо уверенным в победе. Тигрица, защищая тигрят, дерется с любым медведем и чаще гибнет..."

From 2021 notes… ●Russian biologist Kucherenko from The Siberian Tiger Project

“The male Amur tiger will predate Asiatic black bears and subadult and female brown bears. According to telemetry data on tigers from 1992–2003, half the attacks on brown bears occur during hibernation but no males were despite their vulberable state of hibernation.”

[brobear]

Quote; “Average tiger stronger than average bear”

When a biologist makes such a statement, he is referring to the bears that a tiger will stalk and ambush. Therefore, he is saying that the average full-grown male tiger is stronger than a female brown bear (smaller than himself) or a moon bear. He doesn't explain because, to a fellow biologist, his meaning is crystal clear.

[Gorilla king]

Sept 22, 2024 2:42:34 GMT -5 brobear said:

Quote; “Average tiger stronger than average bear”

When a biologist makes such a statement, he is referring to the bears that a tiger will stalk and ambush. Therefore, he is saying that the average full-grown male tiger is stronger than a female brown bear (smaller than himself) or a moon bear. He doesn't explain because, to a fellow biologist, his meaning is crystal clear.

Its very hard to believe that he is referring to average adult male specimens.

[Gorilla king]

The average tiger is always stronger than the average bear

So, aside from Sysoev which stated that brown bears are stronger and more enduring than tigers, Dale Miquelle (Wildlife Conservation Society | WCS · Russia Program Ph.D. Wildlife Ecology), also stated that bears are stronger:

IN REGARDS TO STRENGTHS, THE BIGCATS HAVE REDUCED COLLARBONES WHEN COMPARED TO UNGULATES AND BEARS, WHICH INCREASES FLEXIBILITY AND SPEED, WHILE COMPROMISING ULTIMATE STRENGTH POTENTIAL.

[arctozilla]

“Average tiger stronger than average bear"

Kucherenko didn't conduct anatomical studies and the bears killed by tigers in his observations were undetermined species.