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Post by oldcyansilverback on Sept 17, 2021 3:31:51 GMT -5
Brown bears are not territorial so it is not surprising if they disappear without a trace. Male Ussuri brown bears prefer being in areas where there are an abundance of females to pass on their genes. While female Ussuri brown bears prefer raising cubs in areas where it is tiger free.
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Post by oldcyansilverback on Sept 17, 2021 3:48:48 GMT -5
How heavy would Chamlid be?
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 17, 2021 4:02:15 GMT -5
Here's a recent article never seen before.  books.google.it/books?id=jwsIEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA11&dq=Consumption+does+not+necessarily+mean+predation,+as+tigers+also+scavenge+on+bears+that+died+from+other+causes.+Although+tigers+kill+most+bears+during+their+active+period,+tigers+also+predate+on+hibernating+bears+in+their+dens.&hl=it&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO8vCYz4XzAhUDG-wKHY9LBksQ6AF6BAgHEAM That also proves our point. Jankowski tells of a tiger killing a bear because he found the head and paw of the bear in the tiger's scats however it would have been still possible that it was just scavenged by the tiger. Tkachenko found claws and hairs of bears in tiger's excrement but that would just mean that tiger would have just eat the bear and his measurement of bears being 31.2% of tiger's diet is therefore unreliable and has been already refuted by Seryodkin et al. (read the chart King Kodiak posted at page 2) on other hand according to the results of tiger's prey, which is more reliable, brown bears did comprised 0% of tiger's diet in most periods and 1.2% in one period which is basically nothing. I don't care if the fucking “you know what” desperately take Tkachenko measurements to heart because everyone (expet retarded tiger fanatics) moved on from it. Scavenger is somewhat you don't normally refer to lion or tiger. They do of course eat mostly what they kills like most cats do but no predator is 100% hunter or 100% scavenger, scavenging and hunting is what every predator do. Bears do scavenge more than what they hunt but they can even occasionally bring down large prey like bisons, mooses, musk ox and elk. Bears do steal kills from wolves and cougars but lions do actually the same to hyenas and leopards. Lions despite being apex predators of the African Savannah they have been reported also scavenging. Tigers have been also reported scavenging rhino carcasses and stealing kills too. I saw a stupid tiger fantard saying a bs too: he replied to someone explaining that Jankowski didn't provide any details on bear and that it was not clear that it was hunted or scavenged saying that “tigers eat what they kills, they don't go around stealing food unlike bears” but then he said that bears surrender their meals to tigers which is also an act of scavenging. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Sept 17, 2021 6:13:49 GMT -5
How heavy would Chamlid be? |
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Post by Gorilla king on Sept 17, 2021 6:32:44 GMT -5
Exactly yes, we cant take that method as reliable for predation. Even then, from the same line, brown bears were only 5.4%. So only the top part of the chart (or any other predation chart) "according to tiger's prey" should be taken as reliable for predation, you can clearly see why the percentages at the bottom part are higher, even then its only the Tkachenko line because the other lines for brown bear have 0%. Brown bear predation is negligible in any time period.
By the way, just so there isn't any confusion on that chart, that 31.2% "according to tiger's excrement" , is not 31.2% per month or even per year, no. It was 31.2% of 91 tiger excrements analyzed, between 1992-2000 in the Bol'shekhekhtsirskii reserve.
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Post by Gorilla king on Sept 17, 2021 6:57:04 GMT -5
arctozilla Check the red lines i just put, lmao. Tkachenko has the exact same line on the top also, same time period (1992-2000), and same reserve, and look at the differences in percentages, for the total of both bear species is 18.2% and for brown bear is 0%. All the 18.2% is the Asiatic black bear. Here you can clearly see the difference between the two methods.
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Post by oldcyansilverback on Sept 19, 2021 1:46:35 GMT -5
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Post by arctozilla on Sept 19, 2021 11:16:40 GMT -5
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Post by Gorilla king on Sept 20, 2021 22:05:35 GMT -5
We know a 4 year old tiger just became an adult, so its a young adult, meaning its not in its "prime". According to tiger expert Dr Jhala, tigers are at their prime at 5 years old, see reply #125:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/2336/thread
Having said this, a very reliable and knowledgeable bear poster, BigBonns, from the old AVA forum, thought that a 4 year old tiger was a "prime young adult male loaded with fitness and testosterone"
BIGBONNS:
Peter,
Thanks for your great level of research (and your research of my own research lol)
I personally go with the Pikunov view.
Bear taken by Tiger in an act of stealth, or hibernation predation but Adult male Brown Bears wearing down Tigers in fights.
Its true they are equal in tooth in a claw, with slight edge effects. Tigers greater jaws, canines versus stronger forelegs and huge claws of Bears but the edgyness is difficult to overcome, proven in Lion versus Tiger fights, Grizzly versus Grizzly fights etc..etc.. thus the Bear probably wears down its antagonist with better protection and greater stamina.
Ultimately the Bear wins the species debate because it can achieve much bigger and bulkier animals.
Fallenmonk,
No, the local peoples DO NOT consider the Tiger the king of the woods but the Brown Bear.
Travellers are constantly warned about the man eating Bear of these areas but Tigers rarely approach man. Locals report that the large male Brown Bear usually dominates in fights and has been seen killing Tigers, meanwhile the symbolic animal for Russia is the Bear, not the Tiger.
The Tiger is known as the King of Russia by the European Cat fanatics not by local people.
Peters researched piece of the 4 year old Tiger beaten by the Bear is difficult to negate for a Bigcat fan.
A 4 year old Tiger is a prime young adult male loaded with fitness and testosterone, beaten by the Brown Bear male, in what appeared to be a full out fair fight.
We have to accept that these inner woodland Bear are less than some subspecies.....and thus i would rest my case, or await alternate proof.
Reply #67:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/male-brown-bears-are-not-out-of-of-the-predatory-r-t1991-s60.html#p33963
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Post by nocap on Sept 24, 2021 14:06:41 GMT -5
We know a 4 year old tiger just became an adult, so its a young adult, meaning its not in its "prime". According to tiger expert Dr Jhala, tigers are at their prime at 5 years old, see reply #125:
beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/2336/thread
Having said this, a very reliable and knowledgeable bear poster, BigBonns, from the old AVA forum, thought that a 4 year old tiger was a "prime young adult male loaded with fitness and testosterone"
BIGBONNS:
Peter,
Thanks for your great level of research (and your research of my own research lol)
I personally go with the Pikunov view.
Bear taken by Tiger in an act of stealth, or hibernation predation but Adult male Brown Bears wearing down Tigers in fights.
Its true they are equal in tooth in a claw, with slight edge effects. Tigers greater jaws, canines versus stronger forelegs and huge claws of Bears but the edgyness is difficult to overcome, proven in Lion versus Tiger fights, Grizzly versus Grizzly fights etc..etc.. thus the Bear probably wears down its antagonist with better protection and greater stamina.
Ultimately the Bear wins the species debate because it can achieve much bigger and bulkier animals.
Fallenmonk,
No, the local peoples DO NOT consider the Tiger the king of the woods but the Brown Bear.
Travellers are constantly warned about the man eating Bear of these areas but Tigers rarely approach man. Locals report that the large male Brown Bear usually dominates in fights and has been seen killing Tigers, meanwhile the symbolic animal for Russia is the Bear, not the Tiger.
The Tiger is known as the King of Russia by the European Cat fanatics not by local people.
Peters researched piece of the 4 year old Tiger beaten by the Bear is difficult to negate for a Bigcat fan.
A 4 year old Tiger is a prime young adult male loaded with fitness and testosterone, beaten by the Brown Bear male, in what appeared to be a full out fair fight.
We have to accept that these inner woodland Bear are less than some subspecies.....and thus i would rest my case, or await alternate proof.
Reply #67:
www.tapatalk.com/groups/animalsversesanimals/male-brown-bears-are-not-out-of-of-the-predatory-r-t1991-s60.html#p33963
Alot of 4 year old tigers have already reached full size, they may put on some more bulk and weight but the difference is gonna be little; especially for males. Please see this, but note it refers to the amur tiger; bengal tigers may vary. Here's the source: "At two years old, tigers (Panthera tigris) have been independent from their mothers for at least six months and weigh between 68% (males) and 94% (females) of their asymptotic body mass (Jones et al. (2009); Slaght et al., 2005)." www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004220311135 |
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Post by Gorilla king on Sept 24, 2021 14:30:50 GMT -5
Right, 68% by age 2 for males, this means by age 4 they could be fully grown weightwise, thing is they are not as "experienced" as a 5/6 year old "prime" male tiger. Nevertheless, great kills as Bigbonns said.
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Post by Gorilla king on Oct 2, 2021 14:35:51 GMT -5
This is very old, but it hasn't been posted in this thread:
Various reactions were observed in such situations in the case of bears. One brown bear, which was staying in an area permanently inhabited by tigers, clearly felt himself to be the complete master in that place. Another brown bear, once abruptly turned away from his former path upon his encounter with tiger tracks. But a large, apparently male, Himalayan (or Asiatic black) bear (which we observed visually), like the brown bear that has already been mentioned, clearly did not fear the presence of tigers. He walked along the tiger's tracks and rested in the same wild boar den as did the tiger.
Winter Ecology of the Amur tiger by A.G.Yudakov, I.G.Nikolaev.
www.google.com/books/edition/Winter_Ecology_of_the_Amur_Tiger_Based_U/tSV9ngEACAAJ?hl=en
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Post by Montezuma on Oct 5, 2021 19:46:22 GMT -5
These are my thoughts about this topic:- There are many things to see before a person should talk about this. First of all there are 1. Physical advantages:-In these brown bear clearly has the advantage. The larger size is a good advantage in wild that the bear got. In strength, grappling abilities and robustness the bear has the upperhand. The bear has stamina, powerful paws and better defense part than the tiger. The bear is also agile (not as much as tiger). The tiger is agile, faster and have better jaws but the bear's superior size, strength, stamina, intelligence, denfense and claws etc put bear on the winning side against the tiger. beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/10/major-morphological-studies-comparing-animals2. Animal's natureBy nature brown bears and tigers are different. In fact, felines and ursids are totally different from each other. Cats are hunters and ambushers while bears are most scavengers and fighters. In other words, the brown bear is a face-to-face fighter and the tiger is a ambush hunter. In tiger vs bear debate, we talk about a fight between a brown bear and tiger, not about tiger hunting bear. So in a fight, i think that a fighter wins not a hunter. To see that whose a fighter and whose not, we should see a pit fight of these animals. In pit fights, there is no escape, the animal fights with its all power and courage, the fight goes head to head and there is no cheating so its a good way to analyze. In bear and bull fights of california, bears always killed bulls, even sometimes two or more. The bear was often given a disadvantage but still the bear won. bearking.proboards.com/thread/7/bears-defeat-bovids-face-fightsIn india and south-east asia, the tiger was always killed in pit fights against bullss and buffaloes. Tigers were sometimes pitted two against one bovid but still they lost. Tigers mostly tried to flee instead of fight. bearking.proboards.com/thread/6/bull-buffalo-defeat-tigersWe see that despite of disadvatage for bear, the could killed two bulls, while despite of having an advantage, even two tigers could not even kill a single bovid. Thats a huge difference to be considered! Grizzlies in that pit fights attacked and fought bravely while tiger mostly tried to flee a head-on fight. Thats another main thing to consider. Thats why bears are called better fighters than cat by experts such as clyde beatty, animal expert, while tiger is sometimes called as coward by animal experts such as Valmik thapar, Mel and marco peter etc. bearking.proboards.com/thread/4/tigers-cowards-poor-fighters3. Opinion's from expertsMostly biologists, animal trainers, writters (especially spanish colonists in america who saw the courage and strength of california grizzly against lions and bull in pit fights), hunters and naturalists etc faour a bear over a tiger in a head-on fair fight. beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/18/opinions-favoring-bears-over-cats4. In wildernessIn wild we are alreadily through all this that brown bears dominate tigers. a- Bears dominate and take away tiger's kills. beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/23/bear-kleptoparasitism-over-catsb- Bears are avoided by tigers beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/14/tigers-completely-avoid-adult-ussuric- Throughout this thread, there is proof that tiger never kill adult male brown bear, tiger mostly not prey on bears and there are cases of brown bear killing tiger including adult males. Point a and b clearly shows that tigers are dominated by bears in the wild. 5. AccountsThere is no single account of tiger killing or killing an adult male brown bear in a fair fight or in ambush, or in pit fight or wild. While there are many cases of bbrown bears killing tigers in captivity in fair fights. beargorillarealm.proboards.com/thread/2/bears-defeat-tigers-accountsSo in the last i would say that a brown bear would win from a tiger 8-9 out of 10 times because, A. Pit fight show tiger in not a fighter and is a coward while thee bear is a fight. B. Bears dominate tigers in wild. C. Experts favour bear over tiger. D. Bears have killed plenty full tigers in fair-fights while tigers do not. E. Morphological studies show bear superiority over tiger. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Oct 5, 2021 21:50:07 GMT -5
Montezuma Reply #157, that is a very good summary there bro, awesome.
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Post by Gorilla king on Oct 11, 2021 10:16:27 GMT -5
Interesting article by Sergei Novikov, Russian mathematician based on hunters experiences
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Novikov_(mathematician)
Some of the info is already well known.
We have already said that a bear is a very unpredictable animal, living by its own laws, only he determines how to act in a given situation. Cases of a predator attacking a person, although rare, nevertheless occur, but there is at least some explanation for this: a person is especially unarmed, weak and defenseless in front of this giant.
A sick and hungry bear can easily attack an imaginary hunting object in the form of people, see the post: Animal instinct. But what to share this animal with another master of the Ussuri taiga: the Tiger, is completely incomprehensible. Each of these wild animals has its own hunting objects, but according to experienced hunters, in difficult times for the bear (lack of food supply), there are cases of a bear attacking a tiger.
The opinions of the hunters were divided, some say that the tiger specifically hunts for the bear, others said that the bear walks in the tracks of the tiger, collecting the remains of its food, and still others say that the bear is leaving its lands, in which the tiger appeared.
Probably each of these statements is not far from the truth. But all the same, it is difficult to agree with the last opinion. The fact is that a bear and a tiger in the taiga always live side by side and with a sufficient amount of food bases try to avoid confrontation with each other. A tiger can risk attacking a bear if it lacks natural food, and even then not on a brown, but on a smaller and weaker Himalayan. Fights between large tigers and brown bears occur only in hungry years, unfavorable for the bear in terms of food, when the connecting rods collide with tigers near the prey animals. And only in rare cases, a tiger, especially a young one, can become a victim.
Here is one such case: In a lean year of pine nuts, acorns and berries in the Sikhote-Alin nature reserve on the Tunia River, a brown bear killed and ate a tiger. According to the tracks and the remaining skull of the tiger, the huntsmen determined that the bear was very large, and the tiger was young, about four years old. From the snow trampled by predators, the broken trunks of fir trees (each of which is almost as thick as an arm), blood, and scraps of wool, it was possible to conclude that the struggle was fierce and prolonged
On the territory of the same reserve, there was another fight between tigers and a brown bear, and two Amur tigresses died. This meeting took place in the upper reaches of the Kunaleika river basin. The remains of Vera the tigress and her radio collar were found there (the tigress was tagged). According to hunting experts, an attack on a brown bear tigress could have been the cause of the incident.
At the time of her death, the tigress was about eight years old. The remains of another tigress, Ani, and her radio collar were found in another upper reaches of the Columbus River basin. On the collar, the teeth marks of a large predator were clearly visible, which gives reason to think about an attack by a large brown bear. So who is the owner of the taiga, a bear or a tiger? This is a controversial issue, after each such incident there will be many opinions. What do you think about this?
blogotshelnika.ru/protivostoyanie.html
Article credited to tyrannosaurs/the factual
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Post by arctozilla on Oct 11, 2021 13:04:45 GMT -5
@king Kodiak
No disagreements, but how would a mathematician know about tigers and bears?
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Post by Gorilla king on Oct 11, 2021 13:56:36 GMT -5
@king Kodiak No disagreements, but how would a mathematician know about tigers and bears?
"but according to experienced hunters, in difficult times for the bear (lack of food supply), there are cases of a bear attacking a tiger.
The opinions of the hunters were divided, some say that the tiger specifically hunts for the bear, others said that the bear walks in the tracks of the tiger, collecting the remains of its food, and still others say that the bear is leaving its lands, in which the tiger appeared.
Probably each of these statements is not far from the truth. But all the same, it is difficult to agree with the last opinion. The fact is that a bear and a tiger in the taiga always live side by side and with a sufficient amount of food bases try to avoid confrontation" |
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Post by Montezuma on Oct 12, 2021 17:09:51 GMT -5
Email from a spanish bear expert.  I asked him that who would win in a fight. He says that he have no idea because he does know the intetraction too much. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Oct 12, 2021 17:27:30 GMT -5
Am glad he answered bro. Well he said it depends on (age, size, and health), and he is right. so this means that at averages, he should think the bear wins as it has a 200+ lb weight advantage.
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Post by oldcyansilverback on Oct 14, 2021 8:24:29 GMT -5
 Brobear posted this on Domain of the Bears. When wildlife was more numerous, there were more interactions like this going on in my opinion. |
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