Jiren
Black bear
“Water can flow, or it can crash”.
Posts: 322
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Post by Jiren on Jun 12, 2024 12:13:14 GMT -5
Following the tiger tracks
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Post by Gorilla king on Jun 21, 2024 10:26:38 GMT -5
This is from Wildfact:
wildfact.com/forum/topic-on-the-edge-of-extinction-a-the-tiger-panthera-tigris?pid=207952#pid207952
 So based on battle signs in the snow, they say the tiger is the dominant animal.
So adult male tigers hunting subadult male brown bears and some adult females, some of those weak/sick specimens, all done by ambush, and some of those bears still had the strength to dislodge and put up a good fight, (that's why the "battle signs"), damn, i would say this email favors brown bears. Awesome.
"That's why the population of brown bears is rather low in our region"
So some tigers hunting on average just 3 bears of both species per year affects the brown bear population? That's the funniest thing i ever heard, LMAO. ever heard of poaching? That would be the main cause.
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Post by arctozilla on Jun 22, 2024 15:32:05 GMT -5
A tour guide isn't a reliable voice.
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Jiren
Black bear
“Water can flow, or it can crash”.
Posts: 322
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Post by Jiren on Jun 24, 2024 11:28:50 GMT -5
A tour guide isn't a reliable voice. Yeah I agree, they also say bear and tigers avoid each other usually. Heh. So, not regularly hunted. |
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yz
Sun bear
Posts: 53
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Post by yz on Jul 22, 2024 6:35:30 GMT -5
I found this account from Sysoev :   Any thoughts ? |
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Post by Gorilla king on Jul 22, 2024 7:19:39 GMT -5
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yz
Sun bear
Posts: 53
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Post by yz on Jul 22, 2024 9:02:51 GMT -5
Wouldn't that actually work out for tiger fans though ? Since a fight between a tiger and a very large brown bear ended in a draw. It should have been an easy victory for the bear no ? And even though another tiger got killed , it still managed to break the large bear's arm. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Jul 22, 2024 9:34:24 GMT -5
Wouldn't that actually work out for tiger fans though ? Since a fight between a tiger and a very large brown bear ended in a draw. It should have been an easy victory for the bear no ? And even though another tiger got killed , it still managed to break the large bear's arm.
"Fight with a very large brown male" confrontation ended in a draw, the tiger became lame afterwards. We really dont know how this started, since it was a "very large brown male", it was likely the bear attacked the tiger to displace it from its kill since tigers avoid the adult males. Why a "draw" though? Because they parted ways, so who escaped who? Obviously the tiger since it can escape the bear but not the other way around. Tiger became "lame" afterwards, means "unable to walk without difficulty as the result of an injury or illness affecting the leg or foot."
Tiger escaped, abandoned the fight and became lame. Anyways, there are no easy victories.
Yeah, there are no easy victories. That's a good showing for the tiger even though it got killed.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 28, 2024 5:15:36 GMT -5
Credited to fantasticstruggle788: "Part 1: From V.E. Kostoglod 1981. Experience of long-term tracking of a wandering brown bear in the Sikhote-Alin // Bulletin of the Moscow Society of Naturalists. Dept. of Biology. Vol. 86. Issue 1. pp. 3-12. (Starts at page 10) Translation: relationships between the Amur tiger and brown bears: In November 1965, local resident V.E. Derevnin found the remains of a tiger, eaten by a bear, in the floodplain of the D. Taezhnaya River. The river's floodplain was trampled with predator tracks for several kilometers. The tiger circled and made loops, trying to escape persistent pursuit, but was eventually caught and torn apart. In late March 1976, we encountered the tracks of a tiger with a 'heel' width of 10.5 cm, pursued by a large bear. For more than 14 km, the bear closely followed the tiger, straightening out some of the tiger's path's bends. On sections with snow over 40 cm deep, the bear rushed forward in leaps. Only when the tiger crossed the river on ice, where there were numerous human tracks, did the bear stop the chase. We only had one occasion to observe a tiger hunting a bear. On November 25, 1979, a medium-sized brown bear (with a hind paw print of 27x14 cm), after visiting a series of old dens on the watershed of the Right Akhte and Porozhistaya rivers and not finding a suitable one among them, headed to the 'denning places' in the upper reaches of the Kema River. While crossing the basin of the Porozhistaya River, it encountered numerous tracks of a tigress and her two almost grown cubs (the width of the 'heel' was almost indistinguishable between the female and the young, 8.7-9 cm) in the floodplain of one of its tributaries. Initially moving along the floodplain of the tributary and then upstream, the bear repeatedly came across the tiger's trail. Upon discovering the intruder, the tigers 'cut off' his path along the river channel and lay in wait on the bank. When the bear appeared in front of them on the ice, the tigers followed him along the shore, 10-20 meters away from the riverside bluff. After about 200 meters, the bear started to climb a gentle slope on the left bank; a tigress rushed towards him. The bear leaped across the river channel, quickly climbed a nearly vertical slope on the right bank to its upper third, and stopped. Squeezing his back between three small fir trees, he turned to face the enemy, who was already standing on a small ledge 3 meters away. They were separated by a small ravine in the steep bank, filled with icy overhangs. The animals stood in such positions, apparently for quite a while, as an ice crust formed under the bear, to which tufts of hair stuck. One of the tiger cubs initially followed the tigress in pursuit of the bear, but then fell behind. Unable to attack the bear in this situation, the tigress returned to her waiting young. The bear descended onto the ice on his track and continued along the Porozhistaya river channel. The literature generally holds that the tiger is an enemy of bears, and only rarely becomes their victim (Baikov, 1925; Bromley, 1965; Heptner and Sludsky, 1972)." Part 2: This perspective is applicable to the Asiatic black bear. However, regarding the brown bear, our observations, along with the data from G. Gorokhov (1973), suggest otherwise. The brown bear is not only capable of resisting a tiger but often pursues the tiger and attacks first during encounters: (Table in 3 parts) Part 1: books.google.dz/books/content?id=NbMdAQAAIAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA11&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%BC&sig=ACfU3U2iZGoiBdWRcd7PDi2wc1IyiTeG1A&edge=0 Part 2: books.google.dz/books/content?id=NbMdAQAAIAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA11&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2&sig=ACfU3U0Vzx5MNQvpM3l3HzAqS8YrbyHMlg&edge=0 Part 3:https://books.google.dz/books/content?id=FB8JAAAAIAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA11&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B7%D1%83++%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0&sig=ACfU3U3_WJl2DOHua6H3txRb0IdVh6tP7A&edge=0 The outcome of the struggle is more often in favor of the tiger, but there are also quite a few cases where the bear managed to kill the opponent. Given the relatively low overall population of tigers, the death of individual tigers due to brown bears can significantly impact the population's state. Since in such encounters it is more likely that weakened individuals, including injured ones, will perish, it is possible that the activity of the brown bear helps eliminate potential man-eaters from the tiger population. Indeed, in the Russian Far East, where tigers have long coexisted with brown bears, cases of man-eating were always rare or not recorded at all over long periods. In other parts of the range, a different picture is observed (Corbett, 1957). Studies of the diet and habits of wandering bears (shatuns) have shown that for a successful conclusion of their active wintering, not only the high number of ungulates and the comparatively mild winter conditions typical of the eastern slopes of the Sikhote-Alin were important, but also the presence of a predator like the tiger, whose kills the wandering bears frequently 'hunted.' The considered materials convince us that the method of winter tracking is effective even concerning brown bears. Such observations can be conducted not only on wandering bears. Depending on the timing of the establishment of continuous snow cover and the duration of the bears' wakefulness, they can be tracked at the beginning of winter for 1–1.5 months. In the spring, due to the uneven distribution of snow cover, only fragmentary observations of individual bears are possible." Source: www.google.dz/books/edition/%D0%91%D1%8E%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C_%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3/NbMdAQAAIAAJ?hl=frUpdate: The text actually comes from this source: К.Г. Абрамов, В.К. Абрамов, научные сотрудники Дальневосточного филиала Академии наук СССР Краткий отчет о проделанной работе по учету тигра в Приморском крае. 1958–1959 гг. Государственный архив РФ. Рукопись. Публикуется впервые. K.G. Abramov, V.K. Abramov (V.K. is the son), Research associates of the Far Eastern Branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences Brief report on the work conducted on tiger census in the Primorsky Krai. 1958–1959. State Archive of the Russian Federation. Manuscript. (Page 207). Officially, here's a more accurate translation : "An adult tiger has no enemies. Even large brown bears prefer to avoid encounters with tigers. However, although very rare, there have been observed cases of tigers being killed by bears. Most often, these incidents involve young, not fully grown tigers. Smaller and medium-sized bears are panic-stricken by tigers and often fall prey to them. Upon encountering tiger tracks, such bears try to move away quickly. Tigers prefer not to attack large brown bears, as they cannot break the necks of these large bears. Large brown bears feel relatively safe when encountering a tiger, and in winter, there are even cases of large bears pursuing young tigers and tiger cubs. In the winter of 1954, a brown bear pursued a young tiger for 1.5 months. The bear was eventually killed in an ambush set on a fresh tiger trail (Trubitsyn). Attacks by bears on large tigers are extremely rare. We know of only one case where a large tiger was killed by a bear. In 1913, along the Sinancha River, a large brown bear tracked a big tiger. The bear caught up with and crushed the tiger but did not touch it afterward, and then left (Kyalendzyuga). Among the Udege people, there is a belief that if a bear kills tiger cubs, the tigress will pursue and kill the bear, and vice versa. In some sense, the brown bear can be considered as a feeding competitor of the tiger. Wild boar, red deer, and moose often become prey for the bear."From Acta Zoologicae societatis Bohemoslovenicae volume 26, 1962 (page 199), the big tiger was a male according to V.K. Abramov. Source: books.google.fr/books?id=Q9wHAQAAIAAJ&q=A%20big%20brown%20bear%20killed%20a%20male%20tiger&dq=A%20big%20brown%20bear%20killed%20a%20male%20tiger&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=ydomainofthebears.proboards.com/thread/1643/big-cat-bear-basics?page=4 |
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Post by Gorilla king on Jul 28, 2024 9:45:16 GMT -5
Reply #948:
Some of that has been posted already in this thread, for example the orange paragraph is from TSTP. The very last account, the Sinancha River the male tiger, i had found myself long time ago, reply #19: beargorillarealm.proboards.com/post/30/thread.
The Taezhnaya River bear kills tiger, that one might be new, not sure.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 29, 2024 14:15:27 GMT -5
Repetitively the tiger has been reffered as 'big' or 'large' and it was a male fo sure. Does that mean there are 50% chanced that the tiger was an adult male?
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 29, 2024 14:22:15 GMT -5
I think this account i new:
"In November 1965, local resident V.E. Derevnin found the remains of a tiger, eaten by a bear, in the floodplain of the D. Taezhnaya River. The river's floodplain was trampled with predator tracks for several kilometers. The tiger circled and made loops, trying to escape persistent pursuit, but was eventually caught and torn apart".
I saw other accounts, none have the same details and year. In 1965, Rakov reported a tigress killed by a bear on a boar kill and here the reporter is Derevnin and tghe victim is a tiger not tigress.
I think its a new one. If i am not wrong, we should add it to its right place.
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Post by Gorilla king on Jul 29, 2024 14:37:41 GMT -5
Repetitively the tiger has been reffered as 'big' or 'large' and it was a male fo sure. Does that mean there are 50% chanced that the tiger was an adult male? |
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 31, 2024 14:21:23 GMT -5
I don't know that are these accounts already here. Are they new? Please confirm: From Loukashkin, A. S. (1938). "The Manchurian Tiger". The China Journal. 28 (3): 127–133.
Page 130"On one occasion a tiger, having thus been followed up by hunters, came upon a bear's lair. The bear, hesitating to fight with the tiger, set off for the nearest tree,but,just as it reached it, it was overtaken by the tiger. Judging from the tracks on the ground, a furious fight must have taken place between the two great carnivores, for the snow under the tree was ploughed up, besprinkled with blood and covered with bear's hair. But the fight was fruitless for the tiger, for the bear finally freed itself from the latter's claws and made its escape. The tiger continued its way without the much needed meal." books.google.dz/books?hl=fr&id=xL4hAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=ClawsV.E. kostoglod, Group behavior of animalsDokl. participants of the II All-Union. conf. on animal behavior 1977
Page 187 (not the full page unfortunately)
" At the diachkovsky winter, we were able to trace a confrontation between a bear and a tiger, which returned to its prey. The bear was probably sleeping..............the half-eaten carcass of an igor (wapiti??) killed the day before by a tiger when he calmly approached his prey to 15 meters. Having discovered the close presence of the tiger, the bear rushed towards him. The tiger made 5 large jumps to the side, turned around and stood for some time, imprinting tail blows in the snow. The bear also stopped.......................broke away from the enemy leaning his front dips on a snow-covered bed. After standing in these positions, the animals dispersed, the bear stayed with the tiger's prey." The book: www.google.dz/books/edition/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B6/JTEcAAAAMAAJ?hl=frThe page: Part 1: books.google.dz/books/content?id=JTEcAAAAMAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA187&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%8C&sig=ACfU3U2GUvPWeW_k-B49LlZ5jdaxC4_5ZA&edge=0 Part 2: books.google.dz/books/content?id=JTEcAAAAMAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA187&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%83%D1%82%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B5&sig=ACfU3U2EdIRly6aKuoMI_Xtdb2dnejrfBQ&edge=0 Part 3: books.google.dz/books/content?id=JTEcAAAAMAAJ&hl=fr&pg=PA187&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C&sig=ACfU3U2GX06YMRyuDI-0JX9DiejWjVI3Mg&edge=0 Kostoglod, V.E. (1976). Особенности зимней жизнедеятельности бурого медведя-шатуна на Среднем Сихотэ-Алине [Features of the winter activity of a brown bear-shatun in the Middle Sikhote-Alin]. In Групповое поведение животных [Group Behavior of Animals]. Moscow: Nauka. pp. 185-187.
Translation:
V.E. Kostoglod
Sikhote-Alin State ReserveIn the Sikhote-Alin Reserve, from January 8 to April 5, 1975, with some interruptions, tracking was conducted on the activities of a large male brown bear, known as a "shatun." A total of 200 km was covered following its tracks. The snow depth throughout the winter remained between 20-30 cm and only reached 40 cm on northern slopes by the end of February. The diet of the "shatun" consisted exclusively of animal food, obtained through hunting and scavenging. The territory where the "shatun" spent most of the winter extended 40 km in length and 35 km in width. Within this area, two sections of 200 and 500 square km were identified, on each of which the bear spent significant time, repeatedly appearing in the same places. The transition from one section to the other, covering 30 km, took 10-12 days, crossing a watershed at an altitude of 1200 m above sea level. On this stretch, two "tables" of the predator with remains of red deer were found. The density of large ungulates in the areas was approximately the same—6.2-6.5 red deer tracks and 3-4.2 boar tracks per 10 km of the bear's path, while on the transition route, there were 1.3 boar tracks and 14.7 red deer tracks. Tigers permanently live in both areas. Three main types of bear movements were distinguished by their purpose, each defining specific aspects of its behavior: Search movement (116 km or 58% of the total tracked path). The bear moved at a steady pace, overcoming heights of 600 to 1200 m, crossing the tracks of ungulates, their digs, and bedding sites; sometimes it followed tracks for 50-70 m before abandoning them and continuing its uneven path. Predator tracking with the intent to take over their prey (44 km, 22% of the total tracked path). When encountering tracks of lynx, especially tiger, the bear generally began tracking them, even old ones, often following in their footsteps. Five instances of the bear tracking a tiger and three instances of tracking lynx were noted. No attempts to catch up with the predator were observed. The longest trace of a bear following a tiger, not fully tracked by us, was 22 km.Pursuit of ungulates (40 km - 20% of the total track). Two hunts for wild boars, two for red deer, and two for musk deer were tracked. The pursuit always began at the moment of detecting the animal, sometimes preceded by a brief tracking of fresh tracks. Unlike the "passive" following of predator tracks, in the pursuit of ungulates, the bear demonstrated high abilities as an active hunter, wearing down the prey. Below is an example characterizing the bear's hunting behavior. Upon disturbing a large boar from its bedding in the upper reaches of the Chashevito stream, the bear immediately gave chase. The snow was 40 cm deep, and both animals left deep trenches. After making an arc along the upper forks of the stream, the boar headed down, sticking to the lower part of the northern slope. Near the mouth, it descended into the valley and turned south along the lower terraces of the left slope of the Kuruma river basin. The bear rarely followed the track for more than two hundred meters. Over a distance of 14 km of pursuit, it made 13 detours and short cuts along the boar's path. The length of some of these detours reached 1.5-2.5 km. The predator at this time deviated from the prey's trail by up to 400 m. Moving at a walk and trot parallel to the boar's movement and apparently determining its location by sound, the bear would gallop to intercept. The boar, without changing direction, shifted from a trot to a gallop and in all cases outpaced the bear. During the chase, the bear quickly fell behind, switched to walking, and deviated from the track into a new detour maneuver. The hunt ended unsuccessfully. Having significantly outpaced the boar during the detour, the bear closed the loop, and not finding its tracks, ceased the pursuit. Using similar techniques, the "shatun" crushed a two-year-old boar in the Isakovsky stream after an 18 km pursuit and an adult red deer male in the Goremikin stream after a 5 km chase. Of the 7 inspected "tables" of the "shatun," 2 consisted of its own prey, 2 of tiger's prey, 1 of lynx's prey, and 2 of carrion. The "shatun" stayed with large prey for several days, consuming it completely, including the ribs, spine, and skull bones. It made its den nearby, under the root of a standing tree or in a small depression near the remains of the carcass. It went to drink from key water sources no more than two hundred meters away. If there was no water, it ate snow. Each of these multi-year camps was surrounded by piles of predator's excrement within a radius of up to 10 m. The "shatun" behaved similarly at the remains of tiger or lynx meals.www.google.dz/books/edition/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B6/JTEcAAAAMAAJ?hl=fr |
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Post by Gorilla king on Jul 31, 2024 16:08:15 GMT -5
The first 2 are already known. The last one, the shatun one is new to me.
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Post by Montezuma on Jul 31, 2024 21:53:39 GMT -5
"When encountering tracks of lynx, especially tiger, the bear generally began tracking them, even old ones, often following in their footsteps."
"No attempts to catch up with the predator were observed."
"The "shatun" behaved similarly at the remains of tiger or lynx meals."
It's quite interesting to see that bears treat lynx and tiger track similarly which means they don't conceive tigers as a threat just as lynx.
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 1, 2024 10:15:57 GMT -5
"In 1913, along the Sinancha River, a large brown bear tracked a big tiger. The bear caught up with and crushed the tiger but did not touch it afterward, and then left (Kyalendzyuga)."
I believe I saw this account before.
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 1, 2024 10:22:50 GMT -5
The same account.   A brown bear killed and ate a big male tiger. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 1, 2024 10:41:43 GMT -5
"In 1913, along the Sinancha River, a large brown bear tracked a big tiger. The bear caught up with and crushed the tiger but did not touch it afterward, and then left (Kyalendzyuga)." I believe I saw this account before. |
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Post by arctozilla on Aug 1, 2024 14:52:22 GMT -5
You can use it to add further details to #19 post of bears killing tigers, won't you?
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