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Post by Montezuma on Aug 1, 2024 15:30:29 GMT -5
You can use it to add further details to #19 post of bears killing tigers, won't you? Yes, basically what I wanted to show is that the 1913 make tiger that was killed by the bear was described as a 'large' one. The reason the word 'large' carries weight because Abramov before stating this distinguished between young tigers and large tiger. If that description wasn't mention, then the word large would be highly doubtful. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 1, 2024 16:26:30 GMT -5
You can use it to add further details to #19 post of bears killing tigers, won't you? |
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 2, 2024 11:27:24 GMT -5
Understanding the Brown Bear-tiger ecology in Amur in the 21st century according to reliable data and reasoning
(The proof why Ussuri Brown bears dominate Siberian tigers: a detailed reply to every juvenile tiger-fan) by @montezuma
To be honest, if one is in the seek to acknowledge the true dominant animal in the Amur taiga logically and scientific based, he would behold it as the bear. But why?
The brown bear tiger ecology is not a unique and sole phenomenon of ursid-feline interspecific relationship. The current science is well aware of regular bear-cougar, bear-lynx, and bear-leopard relations in much detail whereas bear-cave lion, bear-american lion, bear-sabertooth cat relations are known to some extent by some authentic evidence. Though species of the same animal vary in physical and psychological attributes they indeed share a common nature which is evident from their typically similar behaviour. To understand the tiger-brown bear relation one should not simply overlook the other bear-cat behaviour to each other for multiple good reasons.
There exists no doubt that modern day American black bears dominate cougars (Panthera, Murphy et al . 1998 , Allen et al), Sloth bears and Asiatic Black bears dominate kill disputes from Leopards (Brown 1993, Thapar, Samarasinha 2005), Brown bears dominate lynxes (Miha Krofel, I. Kos, Klemen Jerina 2012); apart from that in prehistoric times, Cave bear, especially Steppe brown bears, were known to dominate cave lions which resulted in many adult cave lion deaths (Turner and Ant´on, 1997, Bocherens 2015, Esmark 2019), and the Short-faced bears dominated large felids (Wayne, 2021) including Panthera atrox (Leidy, 1853), Panthera onca (Linnaeus, 1758) and Smilodon fatalis (Leidy, 1868). So if modern and prehistoric bears can and are known to dominate large felids smaller than themselves, would it be logical as well to conclude that brown bear dominate tigers in Amur in the same way and for the same reason their extant and extinct cousins did? After all, Brown bears, Black bears, Sloth bears, Cave bears, Steppe Brown bears and Short-faced bears are ursids and tigers, cougars, leopards, lynx, cave lions, sabertooth cats and American lions are felines. This conceptual point alone counts a lot for its rationality and logic.
So Ussuri brown bears basically dominate tigers including adult males? Yes, that's quite true and it's not me saying that it's a scientific opinion as well.
In the beginning I have explained a very good reason for that but now we see some studies as well. Brown bears and tigers are said to avoid each other but it does not seem true for the adult male brown bear as he is the largest mammalian carnivore in Amur taiga who with his size intimidates other creature that he sees. The opinion that bears are afraid to announce their presence to tigers is not true since they, especially males, stay calm in tiger areas (Abramov) and they always announce their presence to tigers (Batalov) and tigers simply try to avoid those males (Batalov, Baikov, Linkov, Aramliev, TSTP) and by tree marking bears indicate indirect aggression towards tiger (Kochlin, Svetlana) as male bears aren't afraid of tigers (Batalov, Linkov). And why should adult males be afraid of tigers? The avoidance of tigers and the bear's aggressive tree marking clearly indicate the confidence the bear feels and hesitation the tiger feels in their relations. Though Abramov said that large bears try not to meet adult tigers recent evidence suggests the complete opposite.
In the northern hemisphere, the brown bear is the dominant kleptoparasite (Krofel et al. 2012), whose kill no one disputes except for a larger bear. (Wayne 2021) due to its size and aggression. Most felids can defend their kill when confronted with small and mid-sized scavengers (Palomares and Caro 1999; Jobin et al. 2000), but they are defenseless against confrontations with larger scavengers such as bears. As other cats invariably lose their prey to larger bears, so do tigers including adult males lose from adult male brown bears. (Miquelle 2005, Tkachenko 2012). It's quite interesting to see that bears basically benefit from tigers presence as tigers provide the male bears free meat (Miquelle) by hunting and getting usurped as Amur lacks wolves which passively feeds bears in other cold regions of the world. Bears track tigers and lynxes track to track (Seryodkin, Goodrich, Kucherenko 1977, Kostoglod, Matthesien and Hornocker, et al 2001) and when a male brown bear approaches the tiger simply goes away (Linkov). Bear kleptoparasitism on tigers is indeed significant as up to 35% of tiger kills are lost to bears (Seryodkin) and this can affect tiger numbers and activity shaping (Krofel, Goldrich). This simply established brown bear dominance over tigers (Miquelle). Apart from evidence and report, what else reason makes it true that brown bears dominate tigers in kill disputes? Let me explain. Bears are dominant scavengers all over the world from America's to Eurasia; they clearly have a face-to-face countering temper and such size to fit their prey stealing nature from other predators. With undisputed and all-acknowledged information that a 300 pound black bear can displace a 200 pound cougar with a 100 pound advantage. A 250 pound sloth bear can do the same against a 150 pound leopard with a 100 pound weight advantage etc. All agree on this but why would it be not agreeable that a 600 pound brown bear can displace a 400 pound tiger with the weight advantage of 200 pounds? Sloth and black bear with a 100 pound weight advantage so why cannot a brown bear win from tiger which have even 200 pound advantage or more? Why would be the bear fearful to track tigers if his cousins aren't? What logic can basically fit in except in accepting that male bears do displace adult tigers. In North America, wolves and cougars passively feed bears, in Europe, lynxes and wolves do and wolves are indirect bear feeders in Siberia; and with the lack of wolves in Amur, tigers serve bears indirectly with food along with bears. We have already known various sources of bears tracking and stealing food from tigers and lynxes but interesting bears track tigers in the same way as they do to lynxes showing they are as confident in tracking tigers as much they are in lynxes (Kostoglod, 1976) as evident from similar behaviour in tracing them which is indeed a noteworthy point. So to conclude, male bears generally dominate tigers in kill disputes as they do to wolf packs.
In animal dominance, when one affects 'elevation occupation' and 'daily activity patterns' or 'population numbers' of others so it means the victim is subordinate to the former. For example in North America Grizzlies generally dominate black bears as American black bears are reported to avoid brown bears by being active at a different period (Aune 1994); and in Amur, brown bears force Asiatic black bears as well as being in the dominant position since Asiatic black bears avoided brown bears by occupying higher elevations and being more diurnal where they coexisted and compared to brown bears, Asiatic black bears behaved more diurnally in order to avoid. Cougars, as generally dominated by wolves move to higher elevations in the presence of wolves who occupy lower elevation and before the introduction of tigers or in areas where tigers are not present, leopards were nocturnal and morning and evening, while after the reintroduction of tigers or in areas where tigers are already present, leopards become diurnal to reduce overlap with tiger activity (Mondal et al, 2012; Steinmetz et al, 2013) since tigers dominate leopards. Leopards are more active diurnally than tigers in the Changbai Mountains, China to avoid the nocturnal tiger. In case of brown bears, there is no single proof that tigers either effect their daily activity or elevation since brown bears in Amur have their behaviour totally normal requiring no change from external force (Tkachenko).The tiger doesn't affect bear numbers either as bears also increase in those areas where tigers increase as research shows (Cui Fandi, 2021) and the biggest threat to bear population as always in Amur is the man hunting which is increase unfortunately (Pikunov, Seryodkin). In contrast, bears do effect tigers as their kleptoparasitism can negatively effect tigers numbers (Goldrich) and bears pose a great to tigers, especially tigresses and cubs (Pyrnn, Kinsella 2021). In fact, it's highly noteworthy that bears reduce man-eating tigers populations which clearly show that do influence tiger activity as well (Corbett 1957) and why not since bear killing of tiger cut the life off various adult and young tiger short (Alexander Kulikov and Yury Dunishenko, 1999). So in this aspect, although the data isn't much abounding as in other interspecific relations of predators, we can conclude that brown bears dominate tigers without opposing research and logic. Indeed, the largest carnivore always dominates the smaller, the opposite is simply absurd.
There exists an opinion that large bears stand less chance against large tigers (Aramliev) and an average tiger is stronger than an average bear (Kucherenko) and it has been expressed in a few more instances as well. However, if analysed by facts and logic, that's untrue (Krechmar 2021) as male bears are stronger than male tigers (Sysoev) and sows are than tigresses (Kulikov) and it fight between males the male bear is more likely to come off as a victor against a male tiger (Krechmar 2021, Valiant, Sibirica 1993) and that's why there are such few instance of adult male tigers dying to adult male bears are recorded (TSTP, Abramov). Furthermore, as a rule large predators generally dominate smaller predators all over the world and since smaller cats always lose to large bears in fights it's totally absurd to assume that a smaller tiger can beat a larger bear. That's why there is no such factual opinion or authentic case ever recorded.
After seeing and understanding the logical fact that why the former is dominant over the latter in brown bear-tiger ecology in Amur from the above evidence I would like to use the sloth bear and tiger relations as a rational and logical argument to make the brown bear tiger picture more clear by exemplifying that to show why it's wise to view brown bears as dominant creatures over tigers. Fortunately, unlike the Amur scenario, the bear-tiger one in India is clearer and known. Before I start, I would firstly declare that in this interaction, the tiger simply have an upper hand in a fight to death match due to its clearly larger size and sloth bear don't dominate tigers as brown bears due to the clear size difference. In India sloth bears and tigers live side by side with occasionally behaving aggressively with each other where tigers hunt them in ambush and bears fight and chase them in frontal fight. Although one might presume that tigers dominate sloth bears as they do to leopards, but that, in fact, is very much different. Sloth bears constitute a small portion in the tiger diet since tigers, generally, don't hunt sloth bears (Richard lydekker, Panna and Chitral NP tiger's diet chart, Tej Kumar). The sloth bears behaviour is never shaped by tiger presence and Sloth bears do not fear tigers. Both do not have predator-prey relations. and these bears roam without any tension (Thapar, Garshiells, Yoganand). Tigers mostly avoid face-to-face confrontations with Sloth bears. (Altre edizioni, Francis leukel) and tigers always kill by ambush and in face on fights, tigers normally flee rather than fighing the aggressive bears as bears can injury them seriously. (Adele conover, Joshi, accounts); in fact, there are many cases of Sloth bears defeating tigers in face-to-face, head-on fight, including sometimes multiple tigers and adult males like Genghis, Khali and Matkasur. (Accounts from experts and many videos from wildlife tourists). In fights, between sloth bears and tigers, the match is often draw. (Yoganand). What basically overall is clear, or in short, that despite of being smaller to them, sloth bears almost always humiliate tigers, show no fear to them and tigers simply try not to encounter them frontally even though a tiger can kill them in a fight to death match. Remember it's a small bear; so if a small bear can humiliate a tiger why cannot a bear not only same-sized but larger than tiger i.e. the Ussuri brown bear dominate tigers? Wouldn't it be simply absurd to think that tigers have a tough time against the smaller sloth bears but not against larger Ussuri brown bears? A tiger who struggles to kill a smaller bear than itself can kill a larger bear itself in a fight? If size speaks for tiger against sloth bears, so do size speaks for Ussuri brown bears as well against tigers. If a small aggressive bear can be a tough opponent to a larger Bengal tiger, it becomes crystal clear the for the largest beast of Amur the small Siberian tiger is not a problem to dominate.
So given the reliable scientific data, interspecific examples and logical rational thinking for a sensible and true-oriented person its totally clear to see that in Amur region the Ussuri brown bears dominates Siberian tigers as American Grizzlies dominate large wolf packs, making the Brown bear as the solely true 'Boss of the Amur Taiga' fearing no one, claiming tiger's prey and making them to evade their aggression and strength. If a person still obstinately denies and cavils all this logic and data, he has simply distracted from the track of rational thinking and should forgo that any kind of true and unbiased knowledge his mind can sustain.
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 2, 2024 11:28:53 GMT -5
Give your thoughts please 🐻
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 2, 2024 13:30:16 GMT -5
Give your thoughts please 🐻 |
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Post by oldcyansilverback on Aug 2, 2024 20:18:56 GMT -5
Give your thoughts please 🐻 I will challenge some of your points in a while  . Don't worry I am on the side of the Ussuri brown bear but there are still a few accounts you might need to address later. Pablo already posted some of them in the earlier pages. |
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 2, 2024 20:34:27 GMT -5
Ok. Please let me know my mistakes if I did.
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Post by oldcyansilverback on Aug 3, 2024 7:59:24 GMT -5
Ok. Please let me know my mistakes if I did. No you did not do any mistakes but it seems that male brown bears also prefer to rob a tigress compared to a male tiger. Sergey Armilev also said a tiger and Ussuri brown bear of equal strength try to avoid each other but if they cannot, a fight breaks out, usually ending in tiger victory. I already have explain what it means in my opinion. I wonder what you think? |
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 3, 2024 15:41:34 GMT -5
Because male bears robbing prey from tigresses is more known than tigers and indeed their is a good reason for that which we have discussed earlier many times. A tigress has cubs to feed and if she loses her painstakingly caught prey to a bears her offspring would die of starvation leaving a victorious bear, a dead tigress and an account. The male tiger has no care to of except himself so he does not risks his life fighting with bear and simply moves on leaving no accounts and traces of detail. Since bears don't act differently when tracking tigers and lynxes (Kostoglod) which shows they got the same type of high confidence against tigers as they have against lynxes; so, they would not differentiate when tracking tigers and tigresses. Furthermore, a brown bear is almost 200 pound heavier than a male tiger which is indeed a good advantage in face-offs on kill disputes and other bears in the world use their size advantage to intimidate smaller cat when exploiting their prey. We also have accounts of bears robbing tigers with pretty much half-high chances of the victims being adult males.
In strength, an adult male brown bears poses no equal. Only the female brown bear can equal (barely though) a tiger in a fight. Adult male bears are not afraid of tigers (Linkov, Batalov) and they clearly announce their presence of them by indirectly showing aggression to tigers via tree markings (Kochlin, Svetlana) however tigers are not heard of that. In 2021, Krechmar, his close colleague, told about a sergey's quote 'not even based of facts' which clearly shows weak points in his statements. He then says fights break out without any detail of bear's or tiger's sex or age. As king Kodiak says in their words, 'ambush hunts' are mostly described as 'fights'. |
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 3, 2024 16:31:39 GMT -5
Ok. Please let me know my mistakes if I did. No you did not do any mistakes but it seems that male brown bears also prefer to rob a tigress compared to a male tiger. Sergey Armilev also said a tiger and Ussuri brown bear of equal strength try to avoid each other but if they cannot, a fight breaks out, usually ending in tiger victory. I already have explain what it means in my opinion. I wonder what you think?
As to Aramilev, again true, they mostly try to avoid each other, especially the adult males. When he says "a fight breaks out" he actually means that the bear was strong enough to dislodge from the ambush and even already injured, still fight, and then get killed. these, as we already know, are not adult males though. |
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Post by kille on Aug 9, 2024 1:30:58 GMT -5
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Post by brobear on Aug 9, 2024 8:42:53 GMT -5
Does a full-grown male brown bear prefer to displace a tigress rather than a full-grown male tiger? Certainly (common sense). This is why a satellite bear will always choose a tigress to follow from kill to kill; usually a tigress with cubs.
However, should the sensitive nose of a brown bear, weight from 600 to 800 pounds or more, catch the scent of a fresh kill, and discovers a male tiger weighing well under 500 pounds (as very few reach that weight), then I have no doubts that the bear will take the carcass. No biologist will ever know this. The tiger will relinquish the carcass with no physical contact with the bear. Therefore, no evidence of how this displacement played out. I firmly believe this happens frequently.
*Note: the bear doesn't know the sex of the tiger until he gets there. He is following the scent of a carcass. He is not choosing to displace a tigress, he is simply choosing to feast.
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 9, 2024 22:54:46 GMT -5
Certainly agree with this. A male brown bear confidently tracks a lynx or tiger, not concerned with the specimen age or gender, in the hope for a free meal. The similar behaviour of shatun bears that they show when tracing tigers and lynxes for kill clearly show that meat not the hunter is inside their head.
Amur taiga isn't much thoroughly studied and known to biologists as Yellowstone's ecology is. We have many cases of tigresses being robbed given the resistance she would give to the bear for the sake of her cubs, automatically leaving an account for us; whereas for the male tiger resisting would not be helpful and he has only to care of himself so he just capitulate and departs leaving no account (we barely have a few with even those filled with uncertainty).
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Post by kille on Aug 10, 2024 14:34:04 GMT -5
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 10, 2024 14:47:06 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum bro. Nice, but all 3 documents are already well known.
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 11, 2024 0:37:27 GMT -5
Account of a huge brown bear beating multiple tiger at the time - Two Hunter brothers witnessCredited to fantasticstruggle788
Vsevolod Sysoev
On Tigers
From the book: Sysoev, Vsevolod. On Tigers. Essay. Khabarovsk, 1967.
From the second volume of "The Amur tiger, speculation, legends and facts".
Starts at page 293"One time, my brother Alexei and I went on a hunting trip. Back then, we didn’t have to go far. Right behind the village, there were dense forests: mostly oak interspersed with cedar. Every year there was a harvest, whether of nuts or acorns, which was the primary food for the animals. We went into the nearest ravine and set up camp. The next day, we went out to scout . I noticed fresh tiger tracks, not just one, but five: three old ones and two young ones, and following their tracks was a brown bear. So, we decided to follow them to see what would happen. We walked about two kilometers and saw that the tigers had killed a wild boar, eaten it, and moved on, while the bear had picked up all the leftovers. It had even gnawed the skull clean. As we followed the stream, with one bank being gentle and the other steeply sloping, we saw that under the cliff, basking in the sun, the tigers were sprawled out. Three were basking in the sun, while the other two were playing with each other. We stopped and watched the tigers through the trees. I was about to take a shot, but my brother whispered, "Wait, the bear is coming towards the tigers." I looked up at the top of the hill and indeed saw a huge bear calmly descending. It seemed not to notice the tigers and was heading straight for them. We stood there wondering if the bear would see the tigers and give off a scent. As expected, the tigers heard the bear before he saw them, and they jumped up, crouching down. The bear came down from the slope like a thunderbolt, and a battle began between them. The tigers would pounce on the bear, and then he would come down from above. They raised such a roar that it seemed the trees were shaking from it. Although the bear was not as agile as the striped ones, he acted skillfully with his front paws and struck so hard that not just one, but two tigers would be thrown away into the bushes from his blows. I don’t know how that battle would have ended, but our hunting passion flared up: I aimed and shot—bang!—at the largest tiger. My brother also opened fire. We were shooting, but the animals paid no attention, becoming even more enraged, and it seemed they didn’t hear our shots. We fired off a magazine; it seemed two tigers lay motionless, but the fight continued, with bushes cracking and young trees swaying as the beasts collided with them. We loaded another magazine and continued to fire at the tigers. When we looked, the bear had fallen into the snow: either he stumbled onto a bullet himself or was hit by a ricochet. We gave the tigers one last, final salvo and started descending into the stream. We sat on some fallen branches in the stream, took a break, then reloaded our rifles and carefully approached the site of the animal fight. The bear was noticeable from afar by its blackness against the snow. We had never killed a bear like that before or since. Believe it or not, it weighed more than forty poods (around 650 kg). We skinned it just to show the villagers what kind of bears there were. We also collected the skins of four tigers near the bear."domainofthebears.proboards.com/post/65243/thread
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Post by Gorilla king on Aug 11, 2024 6:02:38 GMT -5
Reply #975
That's an awesome account bro. Damn, no wonder Sysoev favored the bear, he really witnessed brown bears killing and defeting tigers, even multiple tigers at once. No wonder he stated "Brown bears are the landlords of this forest and dare to enter into battle with tigers and become winners."
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 12, 2024 10:53:25 GMT -5
Shouldn't we add it the "Bear killing or defeating tiger accounts" thread. That would be awesome!
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 12, 2024 11:07:06 GMT -5
Here are the screenshots of the text:   I google translated these myself and found the same theme. There was only one mistake, "I was going to fuck the largest tiger" Lmao. |
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Post by Montezuma on Aug 16, 2024 1:28:23 GMT -5
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. Don't worry I am on the side of the Ussuri brown bear but there are still a few accounts you might need to address later. Pablo already posted some of them in the earlier pages.
